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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #4441
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Even most of his firmest critics have been clear that what Boris did was entirely legal. It would take a vexatious litigant to say otherwise.
    Not necessarily. The Benn Act doesn't ask for just any old extension, but an extension as specified in article 50. The text of article makes clear that the extension is the result of negotiations between the leaving state and the EU. So by not negotiating or frustrating the process by negotiating something else than the extension specified in the Benn Act his behavior may not be quite legal.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  2. #4442
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Not necessarily. The Benn Act doesn't ask for just any old extension, but an extension as specified in article 50. The text of article makes clear that the extension is the result of negotiations between the leaving state and the EU. So by not negotiating or frustrating the process by negotiating something else than the extension specified in the Benn Act his behavior may not be quite legal.
    The side letters are of no legal significance; they're not even effective politics. Their original purpose was almost certainly to provoke a dangerous showdown with the courts, from which the stooges had expected to make tons and tons of political hay in an upcoming election. However, their incessant fuckery ultimately led to Johnson being forced to make a legally binding promise to fully comply with the letter and the spirit of the law, and the govt's lawyers have ensured that there can be no legal doubt that a genuine extension has been requested - so no showdown necessary. Worse still, the court will now continue to observe in a supervisory role, to make sure Johnson doesn't try, later on, to break his promise or somehow weasel out of it. That might provoke a dangerous conflict down the line, but I believe Johnson is too concerned about his own hide to take such a massive risk that may see him found in contempt of court. As one person put it:

    Last edited by Aimless; 10-21-2019 at 02:24 PM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #4443
    Quote Originally Posted by Baldrick View Post
    Have you read the deal? You're 100% wrong, legally this proposal means NI will be in the same customs territory as the UK. That is explicitly written into the agreement.
    That is as cunning as writing "these aren't drugs" on a bag of cocaine ie. it's dumb.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ion/55/enacted



    55 Single United Kingdom customs territory

    (1)It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain.

    (2)For the purposes of this section “customs territory” shall have the same meaning as in the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1947 as amended.
    https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e...on_art24_e.htm



    Territorial Application — Frontier Traffic — Customs Unions and Free-trade Areas

    1. The provisions of this Agreement shall apply to the metropolitan customs territories of the contracting parties and to any other customs territories in respect of which this Agreement has been accepted under Article XXVI or is being applied under Article XXXIII or pursuant to the Protocol of Provisional Application. Each such customs territory shall, exclusively for the purposes of the territorial application of this Agreement, be treated as though it were a contracting party; Provided that the provisions of this paragraph shall not be construed to create any rights or obligations as between two or more customs territories in respect of which this Agreement has been accepted under Article XXVI or is being applied under Article XXXIII or pursuant to the Protocol of Provisional Application by a single contracting party.

    2. For the purposes of this Agreement a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories.
    Do you have the good grace to admit you were wrong in writing "Legally, this proposal means NI would not be in the same customs territory as the UK" when the text literally says "Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom"?
    Legally, this proposal means NI would likely not be in the same customs territory as the UK--under both UK and international law--and cocaine is a drug no matter what it says on the helpful and reassuring label. The only ways around this obstacle are to render this portion of the Withdrawal Agreement so limited in scope that it becomes meaningless, change the text of the agreement, or change the relevant provision of the Cross-Border Trade Act.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  4. #4444
    Seems like we should know by about 7.30pm tonight (8.30 Europe time) whether we are leaving this month or not. Parliament is going to vote tonight on giving the Withdrawal Agreement Bill its Second Reading and Programme Motion. Second Reading should be a formality (if it goes down it's off) and normally it's Third Reading that is most controversial but the Programme Motion is controversial today.

    If the Programme Motion goes ahead then we should get to third reading on Thursday. If it goes down it seems the government will pull the Bill, accept an extension request and we go to a General Election.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #4445
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Seems like we should know by about 7.30pm tonight (8.30 Europe time) whether we are leaving this month or not. Parliament is going to vote tonight on giving the Withdrawal Agreement Bill its Second Reading and Programme Motion. Second Reading should be a formality (if it goes down it's off) and normally it's Third Reading that is most controversial but the Programme Motion is controversial today.

    If the Programme Motion goes ahead then we should get to third reading on Thursday. If it goes down it seems the government will pull the Bill, accept an extension request and we go to a General Election.
    God, you lot really made this a three ring circus.

    Let's hope Brexitards won't let De Pfeffel forget that he just tried to force the OLD May plan on them to replace the NEW May plan. Even though he'd said already that no British PM could ever accept it. Or maybe he was honest after all and thinking in his little fantasy that as World King he could make words to mean what he wanted them to mean. So that he really said English PMs could. And us mortals didn't understand that he had.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #4446
    Boris's plan is very different to May's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #4447
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    You can still buy that iPad Pro. I gift wrapped it for you.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  8. #4448
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If the Programme Motion goes ahead
    Lol it won't.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #4449
    It didn't. Not surprised.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #4450
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #4451
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    So, anyone seen BoJo dead in a ditch yet?

    There's still time.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  12. #4452
    dude
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #4453
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    So, anyone seen BoJo dead in a ditch yet?

    There's still time.
    Parliament took his place, made the decision to extend and died instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #4454
    Did you really expect a bill like this would be accepted without amendments tabled or discussed?

    Don't blame parliament. Blame the PM and his awful time management / strategy to try and portray parliament as the bad guys.

  15. #4455
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Did you really expect a bill like this would be accepted without amendments tabled or discussed?

    Don't blame parliament. Blame the PM and his awful time management / strategy to try and portray parliament as the bad guys.

    Yes. It's a 28-nation agreement. Take it or leave it. Noel Edmunds stye.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #4456
    "Take it or leave it"?

    Is that what Brexit Britain sovereignty and control looks like? You'd be furious if Corbyn had followed the same strategy with his style deal.

  17. #4457
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    "Take it or leave it"?

    Is that what Brexit Britain sovereignty and control looks like? You'd be furious if Corbyn had followed the same strategy with his style deal.
    No it is not what "Brexit Britain" sovereignty and control looks like, it is what European Union sovereignty and control looks like. If you don't like it, you should support Brexit.

    We have sovereignty and control over our own laws and regulations but when it comes to international agreements including European Union agreements under the auspices of which this deal has been negotiated you either accept them, or you don't. Parliament doesn't negotiate international agreements, nor can it amend them, never has done and never can do it doesn't work that way. The executive along with the executive of other nations negotiates and then Parliament says yes or no to what is negotiated. This is an agreement agreed between 28 nations executives, 29 if you include the EU and its Commission itself, if all 29 Parliaments those executives reflect were able to amend parts of the agreement it didn't like it wouldn't be possible to ever reach agreement. If you want Parliament to be able to amend legislations then we need to take back control so that Parliament is the only one that is passing the legislation and divorce away from having the European Union and the rest of the 27 EU nations involved.

    Once we have Brexited we Parliament will be able to pass or amend our domestic laws however it pleases but until then we are still operating under the confines of the EU and it is on that basis that Parliament must accept what the EU has negotiated. Your problems are not with Brexit but with operating on an EU level, funny that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #4458
    Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't even attempt to scrutinise or own legislation because of how the EU might react.

    Weak. Pathetic. Doomsaying. Pessimism.

    No, my problems are with Brexit and the manner in which it's been managed by the people responsible, who instigated the whole thing.

  19. #4459
    This move will have such extraordinarily far-reaching and significant consequences for people in the UK—whether there is an agreement or not—that it would be absurd to not make room for parliamentary scrutiny and input. This is not a regular negotiation.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  20. #4460
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't even attempt to scrutinise or own legislation because of how the EU might react.

    Weak. Pathetic. Doomsaying. Pessimism.

    No, my problems are with Brexit and the manner in which it's been managed by the people responsible, who instigated the whole thing.
    No I am suggesting that we can strutinise it, then accept it or reject it.

    You can't amend a 28-nation agreement. It is a case of accept or reject, take it or leave it, deal or no deal, that is how international relations work. If you require amendments then you need to reject it, as I did with May's deal. I didn't say lets unilaterally have Parliament amend it to get rid of the backstop, I said I can't accept this due to the backstop so lets reject it and then go to the EU looking for amendments. Parliament can scrutinise absolutely but it is then take it or leave it, if you want amendments you either leave it, or accept it for now and seek amendments in future negotiations.

    I wanted an amendment earlier this year but I said Parliament should reject it because of that. I'm being consistent with how international negotiations occur, your saying Parliament should amend it is not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #4461
    Who says it can't be amended?

    And we can't scrutinise it now because the PM won't let us.

  22. #4462
    The European Council.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #4463
    Oh, and you believe them now? You used to say negotiations went up to the last minute and the EU have a history of days doing so.

    So you think that if we went back with some amendments that parliament support and were beneficial to the EU, they'd refuse to talk?

    What a doomsayer.

  24. #4464
    And I was right the negotiations did go up to the last minute. But the EU doesn't negotiate with Parliaments, never has done.

    If you want an amendment you need to reject the deal and go back to the drawing board with what you want negotiating. Parliament could have done that, it had time to scrutinise then accept or reject the deal, to amend it unilaterally though is outside the scope of Parliament's powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #4465
    This isn't exactly how you move the deal forward:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #4466
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    Shouldn’t we place bets on whether the next extension will be one of the article 50 or the transition?

    I know De Pfeffel keeps denying there is a need for extensions, but we have to understand this means the opposite coming out of his mouth.

    @randy; yes the negotiations went on till rather late, but we couldn’t have expected De Pfeffel insisting on negotiating away every single concession the previous British government had managed to secure. In other words; how could we know that when he said he wanted a better deal, it meant a better deal for the EU?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  27. #4467
    I have zero qualms with the transition being extended, most of the original transition period has been wasted by dragging on the A50 process.

    Boris negotiated concessions the new government didn't want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #4468
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    De Pfeffel and his party are going around the country telling that they will not extend it. FYI; July is the deadline for requesting a longer transition. Lacking the request that leaves 11 months to negotiate the new relationship with the EU. This time the deal being subject to a full round of ratification. So effectively there are 8 months at best. The only deal that could be closed in such a time frame is BINO.

    I have no doubt that the facts will play no role in your voting next month.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  29. #4469
    In case you missed it there's an election going on here. People on all sides make ideal promises of what they want to occur but no guarantees when it comes to international negotiations they can occur.

    We'll see how negotiations transpire.

    If we can get talks completed in time then there's no point agreeing an extension.

    If we are making solid progress towards a good deal but an extension becomes necessary to get it completed then it wouldn't surprise me to see an extension agreed despite it being unwanted now.

    If we are not making progress then there's no point agreeing an extension.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #4470
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    In case you missed it there's an election going on here. People on all sides make ideal promises of what they want to occur but no guarantees when it comes to international negotiations they can occur.

    We'll see how negotiations transpire.

    If we can get talks completed in time then there's no point agreeing an extension.

    If we are making solid progress towards a good deal but an extension becomes necessary to get it completed then it wouldn't surprise me to see an extension agreed despite it being unwanted now.

    If we are not making progress then there's no point agreeing an extension.
    Talks of the kind that are necessary for diversion from EU regulations can not be completed in the months between january and august. The only deal that can be done on such a short notice is you accepting that Brexit can't really happen and you staying under EU suzerainty.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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