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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #4501
    It has great negotiation skills and leverage, it got what it wanted and what its voters are pretty happy with I suspect. We'll see, as the deal is being put front and centre in the General Election by the government and we'll see if it gets a majority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #4502
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    No, it gave us what we wanted and then a bit. The Johnson deal is not a better deal, it's a worse deal. It gives away part of your country with NOTHING in return except for vassalage till the end of next year.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  3. #4503
    It doesn't give away anything. It de jure keeps NI in the UK and de facto lets the NI voters decide what they want. That's a good deal for them.

    And we get what we voted for, that's a good deal for us.

    But sure if you think you pulled a fast one over us . . . sure you did. Do it again in the next round please? Please humiliate us by doing exactly what we wanted next time too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #4504
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Right, you are the big master minds. That's why you needed two extensions.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #4505
    We needed multiple extensions [we're on our third not second now BTW] because Parliament played silly buggers and we originally had the worst Prime Minister in centuries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #4506
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    I actually lost count. Master minds you are not.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #4507
    The new deal places NI in a separate customs territory under UK law. It was always going to be the only way to square this circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We needed multiple extensions [we're on our third not second now BTW] because Parliament played silly buggers and we originally had the worst Prime Minister in centuries.


    Your commitment to this parody bit is truly impressive
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  8. #4508
    No, under UK and international law NI is under the same customs territory as the rest of the UK. I've already quoted the relevant law to you, why do you keep repeating bullshit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #4509
    I have already refuted your claim. Why do you keep repeating bullshit?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #4510
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I have already refuted your claim. Why do you keep repeating bullshit?

    You haven't refuted anything. You've quoted a law that says under GATT rules NI should be in the UK's customs territory. Then you've quoted GATT rules. None of which has to do with the agreement.

    In the agreement it explicitly states that under GATT rules NI will be part of the UK's customs territory as the law requires.
    Article 4 - Customs Territory of the United Kingdom

    Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom.

    Accordingly, nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from including Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of any agreements it may conclude with third countries, provided that those agreements do not prejudice the application of this Protocol.

    In particular, nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from concluding agreements with a third country that grant goods produced in Northern Ireland preferential access to that country’s market on the same terms as goods produced in other parts of the United Kingdom.

    Nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from including Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of its Schedules of Concessions annexed to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1994.”
    Why are you spreading bullshit? Legally NI Will be part of the UK's customs territory - and a UK law saying it should be doesn't change that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #4511
    Please re-read the entire post a little more carefully. Slapping a label that says "this isn't cocaine" on a bag of cocaine doesn't magically transform the contents of the bag.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #4512
    Indeed which is why it doesn't matter how much you wish to relabel NI it simply will be part of the UK's customs territory.

    If the UK signs a free trade deal with another non-EU nation then will NI benefit from the trade deal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #4513
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    Interesting question which can only be answered by your future partners who would have to be brain dead to allow it.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  14. #4514
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed which is why it doesn't matter how much you wish to relabel NI it simply will be part of the UK's customs territory.
    Unfortunately, under the definition accepted in current UK law - "a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories" - it will be a "part of a separate customs territory".

    If the UK signs a free trade deal with another non-EU nation then will NI benefit from the trade deal?
    Legally not certain that NI's trade arrangement with a new UK trade partner would be subject to exactly the same conditions as the rest of the UK's trade would - certainly not for goods from other countries entering NI through rUK. Even without positing any hypothetical future trade agreements, the agreement as it currently stands will see NI businesses required to fill out export forms when trading with rUK, and there will be checks on various categories of goods, most notably agri-food, but also ROO checks on other products. NI will be required to maintain regulatory alignment with the EU even if rUK diverges, and remain under the jurisdiction of the CJEU in these matters. So the extent to which NI will benefit from future FTAs between UK and other countries will depend on how those agreements specifically deal with NI's special status.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #4515
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Unfortunately, under the definition accepted in current UK law - "a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories" - it will be a "part of a separate customs territory".
    No, it won't. The law is clear however much you try and fudge it with your asinine bullshit. This bag of flour, clearly labelled flour, containing flour and tested to be flour, that came from a flour mill and a drugs inspector has tested it and agreed it is flour is still flour however much you keep screaming from behind your keyboard it is cocaine.

    Scotland has different regulations for some commerce than England, does that make Scotland a seperate customs territory to England?
    Legally not certain that NI's trade arrangement with a new UK trade partner would be subject to exactly the same conditions as the rest of the UK's trade would - certainly not for goods from other countries entering NI through rUK. Even without positing any hypothetical future trade agreements, the agreement as it currently stands will see NI businesses required to fill out export forms when trading with rUK, and there will be checks on various categories of goods, most notably agri-food, but also ROO checks on other products. NI will be required to maintain regulatory alignment with the EU even if rUK diverges, and remain under the jurisdiction of the CJEU in these matters. So the extent to which NI will benefit from future FTAs between UK and other countries will depend on how those agreements specifically deal with NI's special status.
    That there may be administrative differences doesn't change the law. The law and international clearly and explicitly states that NI is part of the UK's customs territory. Devolved arrangements whether in Scotland or Stormont do not trump that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #4516
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No, it won't. The law is clear however much you try and fudge it with your asinine bullshit. This bag of flour, clearly labelled flour, containing flour and tested to be flour, that came from a flour mill and a drugs inspector has tested it and agreed it is flour is still flour however much you keep screaming from behind your keyboard it is cocaine.
    Except that, in your own legislation, you accept a definition whereby the contents of the bag is actually cocaine.

    Scotland has different regulations for some commerce than England, does that make Scotland a seperate customs territory to England?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Unfortunately, under the definition accepted in current UK law - "a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories" - it will be a "part of a separate customs territory".
    Scotland and England are both within the EU, with no substantial regulatory differences between one another wrt trade with other countries.

    That there may be administrative differences doesn't change the law. The law and international clearly and explicitly states that NI is part of the UK's customs territory. Devolved arrangements whether in Scotland or Stormont do not trump that.
    The "administrative differences" reflect substantial (future) regulatory differences, which do have bearing on the interpretation of the law, wrt a substantial part of NI's trade with other territories. They will apply to eg. half of all the agri-food products produced in NI. Similarly substantial differences will emerge as the UK diverges from EU policy in other areas (eg. technical regulation, environmental regulations, state aid etc).
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #4517
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Except that, in your own legislation, you accept a definition whereby the contents of the bag is actually cocaine.
    No it does not.
    Scotland and England are both within the EU, with no substantial regulatory differences between one another wrt trade with other countries.
    The word used was commerce. There are major regulatory differences between one and another wrt trade of some sectors. Try being a practising lawyer in both for instance. One is subject to English Common Law and the other is subject to Scots Law and the two are quite different. Same too in other industries. Quite a few Alcohol regulations and others like that are different in Scotland and England too.

    For a substantial part of the trade of NI with other territories [ie China, USA, Australia, rest of the world] NI will be aligned with the UK except on certain devolved laws such as phytosanitary standards. NI will have some regulations synced, subject to Stormont's devolved consent just as Holyrood has devolved consent over certain regulations. Overall though the UK including NI will be one Customs Territory. As the legally-binding document sets out in black and white. This agreement is legally-binding and will be a part of international law and it puts the UK as a single customs territory under GATT as being paramount and a part of the legally-binding agreement.
    The "administrative differences" reflect substantial (future) regulatory differences, which do have bearing on the interpretation of the law, wrt a substantial part of NI's trade with other territories. They will apply to eg. half of all the agri-food products produced in NI. Similarly substantial differences will emerge as the UK diverges from EU policy in other areas (eg. technical regulation, environmental regulations, state aid etc).
    Half of agri-food . . . big deal. What about the other half? And agri-food is one of the most aligned with the EU there is and you're saying only half on that?

    Yes there will be some devolved standards but then devolution exists today already. Devolution doesn't break up a customs territory.

    There are great differences between EU nations on certain commerce standards, not every industry is harmonised and the EU is still one customs territory. Indeed back in 1993 a lot less was harmonised than now and still the EU was one customs territory. Customs territories can have differences within them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #4518
    Polling getting better but won't count any chickens until we get the exit poll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #4519
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Hey Rand, better hope you agree to a deal. Because your vaunted "Trading under WTO rules" may just account for nothing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...urt-shuts-down
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  20. #4520
    Its not going to happen anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #4521
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    True, De Pfeffel is going to do so many I-turns it's going to make your head spin.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  22. #4522
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Its not going to happen anyway.
    Your buddy BoJo, currently removing all the safety valves.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tlaw-extension

    The short time remaining only leaves time for agreeing a "default" trade agreement. Any major deviations from such a standard agreement will blow the time table out of the water. In that case you should agree to an extension.

    But without such an extension, you'll be left with a Hard Brexit (again). Only that it will be even worse than before: Because you will still have to abide by the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement (i.e. border down the Irish sea, paying all that you owe and all that jazz). And if you do not abide by the WA, we get to fuck you over sideways without you having the tiniest bit of recourse because the WTO cannot do anything.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  23. #4523
    Oh no! All we have time for is to get what we want from the talks!? How horrific!? However are we going to cope in only having time to get that which we want anyway?

    We don't want some sort of bullshit customs and trade agreement union. All we want is a trade agreement. Zero tariffs, zero quotas, bish-bash-bosh, done.

    Half of all goods trade attract zero tariffs already. Most of those that do attract tariffs have very low tariffs. Those goods that attract high tariffs include very few areas like agriculture and high tech manufactoring like cars - and in those areas we run a very, very large trade deficit. Specifically Germany, France and Ireland have very, very large trade surpluses with the UK. So it is in all their interests to get a deal done.

    PS welcome to post-election British politics. Johnson all along said there should be no extension, including in his manifesto. There is nothing new here, except Remainers are aghast to realise that Johnson can do that which he always said should be done. That Johnson can implement his manifesto commitment. The Parliamentary deadlock is broken and one suspects that Barnier and the other adults in the room on the EU's side are glad after the mess of recent years to have an adult in the room like Johnson who can actually implement whatever he agrees unlike May.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #4524
    What it means is that you will—at best—be stuck with an agreement much worse than the agreements with Canada, SK and Japan, and services will be fucked.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #4525
    We'll see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #4526
    Those negotiations were much less contentious, and took much more time to negotiate than you've given yourself. The only way you'll get a better deal in much less time is if you redefine "better" with all the creativity at your disposal, which, granted, would be true to form for the champion goalpost-movers of Brexitball.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #4527
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    I'm also not quite seeing how you think you'll get anything more than you already have. The time remaining is not enough for anything complex. As soon as you begin to demand unicorns you'll face the cliff once again. After the 1st of July it's do or die, by the way.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #4528
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    Randy seems to believe there is an ez fix that doesn't change anything while changing everything. He's still not internalized that Brexit means leaving the EU.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  29. #4529
    I'm perfectly fine with leaving the EU. It shouldn't take long to agree a trade deal that keeps your massive trade surplus with us. Who stands to benefit from objecting to a clean and simple zero tariff, zero quotas trade deal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #4530
    Phase one was much harder than Phase 2 because of multiple factors.

    In phase 1 the U.K. was hamstrung with an incompetent PM.
    In phase 1 the U.K. Was hamstrung by an obstructionist Parliament.
    In phase 1 the U.K. and EU were arguing over relatively zero sum things. More money for the EU is less for the UK etc. Plus Ireland.

    Where the U.K. and EU had common interests in phase 1 (e.g. Citizens rights) that was rather simple and uncontentipus to agreee.

    Phase 2 is much simpler and more advantageous. The UK and EU both want smooth and free trade. We both want the same thing. Our PM is respected and has just won a landslide so has Parliaments support. You can act as childish as you like it won't matter. The grown ups will agree a free trade deal, we will ratify it as will you and we will move on smoothly. Have more faith in your own sides grown ups as I have in mine. I imagine Barnier is quite relieved at last weeks election. Already Von Der Leyen has confirmed she will meet with Boris in January and start preparing for the trade deal to come.

    Its over. We won. Brexit is happening, accept it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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