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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #4501
    It has great negotiation skills and leverage, it got what it wanted and what its voters are pretty happy with I suspect. We'll see, as the deal is being put front and centre in the General Election by the government and we'll see if it gets a majority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #4502
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    No, it gave us what we wanted and then a bit. The Johnson deal is not a better deal, it's a worse deal. It gives away part of your country with NOTHING in return except for vassalage till the end of next year.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  3. #4503
    It doesn't give away anything. It de jure keeps NI in the UK and de facto lets the NI voters decide what they want. That's a good deal for them.

    And we get what we voted for, that's a good deal for us.

    But sure if you think you pulled a fast one over us . . . sure you did. Do it again in the next round please? Please humiliate us by doing exactly what we wanted next time too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #4504
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Right, you are the big master minds. That's why you needed two extensions.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #4505
    We needed multiple extensions [we're on our third not second now BTW] because Parliament played silly buggers and we originally had the worst Prime Minister in centuries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #4506
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I actually lost count. Master minds you are not.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #4507
    The new deal places NI in a separate customs territory under UK law. It was always going to be the only way to square this circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We needed multiple extensions [we're on our third not second now BTW] because Parliament played silly buggers and we originally had the worst Prime Minister in centuries.


    Your commitment to this parody bit is truly impressive
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #4508
    No, under UK and international law NI is under the same customs territory as the rest of the UK. I've already quoted the relevant law to you, why do you keep repeating bullshit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #4509
    I have already refuted your claim. Why do you keep repeating bullshit?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #4510
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I have already refuted your claim. Why do you keep repeating bullshit?

    You haven't refuted anything. You've quoted a law that says under GATT rules NI should be in the UK's customs territory. Then you've quoted GATT rules. None of which has to do with the agreement.

    In the agreement it explicitly states that under GATT rules NI will be part of the UK's customs territory as the law requires.
    Article 4 - Customs Territory of the United Kingdom

    Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom.

    Accordingly, nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from including Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of any agreements it may conclude with third countries, provided that those agreements do not prejudice the application of this Protocol.

    In particular, nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from concluding agreements with a third country that grant goods produced in Northern Ireland preferential access to that country’s market on the same terms as goods produced in other parts of the United Kingdom.

    Nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from including Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of its Schedules of Concessions annexed to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1994.”
    Why are you spreading bullshit? Legally NI Will be part of the UK's customs territory - and a UK law saying it should be doesn't change that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #4511
    Please re-read the entire post a little more carefully. Slapping a label that says "this isn't cocaine" on a bag of cocaine doesn't magically transform the contents of the bag.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #4512
    Indeed which is why it doesn't matter how much you wish to relabel NI it simply will be part of the UK's customs territory.

    If the UK signs a free trade deal with another non-EU nation then will NI benefit from the trade deal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #4513
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    Interesting question which can only be answered by your future partners who would have to be brain dead to allow it.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  14. #4514
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed which is why it doesn't matter how much you wish to relabel NI it simply will be part of the UK's customs territory.
    Unfortunately, under the definition accepted in current UK law - "a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories" - it will be a "part of a separate customs territory".

    If the UK signs a free trade deal with another non-EU nation then will NI benefit from the trade deal?
    Legally not certain that NI's trade arrangement with a new UK trade partner would be subject to exactly the same conditions as the rest of the UK's trade would - certainly not for goods from other countries entering NI through rUK. Even without positing any hypothetical future trade agreements, the agreement as it currently stands will see NI businesses required to fill out export forms when trading with rUK, and there will be checks on various categories of goods, most notably agri-food, but also ROO checks on other products. NI will be required to maintain regulatory alignment with the EU even if rUK diverges, and remain under the jurisdiction of the CJEU in these matters. So the extent to which NI will benefit from future FTAs between UK and other countries will depend on how those agreements specifically deal with NI's special status.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #4515
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Unfortunately, under the definition accepted in current UK law - "a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories" - it will be a "part of a separate customs territory".
    No, it won't. The law is clear however much you try and fudge it with your asinine bullshit. This bag of flour, clearly labelled flour, containing flour and tested to be flour, that came from a flour mill and a drugs inspector has tested it and agreed it is flour is still flour however much you keep screaming from behind your keyboard it is cocaine.

    Scotland has different regulations for some commerce than England, does that make Scotland a seperate customs territory to England?
    Legally not certain that NI's trade arrangement with a new UK trade partner would be subject to exactly the same conditions as the rest of the UK's trade would - certainly not for goods from other countries entering NI through rUK. Even without positing any hypothetical future trade agreements, the agreement as it currently stands will see NI businesses required to fill out export forms when trading with rUK, and there will be checks on various categories of goods, most notably agri-food, but also ROO checks on other products. NI will be required to maintain regulatory alignment with the EU even if rUK diverges, and remain under the jurisdiction of the CJEU in these matters. So the extent to which NI will benefit from future FTAs between UK and other countries will depend on how those agreements specifically deal with NI's special status.
    That there may be administrative differences doesn't change the law. The law and international clearly and explicitly states that NI is part of the UK's customs territory. Devolved arrangements whether in Scotland or Stormont do not trump that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #4516
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No, it won't. The law is clear however much you try and fudge it with your asinine bullshit. This bag of flour, clearly labelled flour, containing flour and tested to be flour, that came from a flour mill and a drugs inspector has tested it and agreed it is flour is still flour however much you keep screaming from behind your keyboard it is cocaine.
    Except that, in your own legislation, you accept a definition whereby the contents of the bag is actually cocaine.

    Scotland has different regulations for some commerce than England, does that make Scotland a seperate customs territory to England?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Unfortunately, under the definition accepted in current UK law - "a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories" - it will be a "part of a separate customs territory".
    Scotland and England are both within the EU, with no substantial regulatory differences between one another wrt trade with other countries.

    That there may be administrative differences doesn't change the law. The law and international clearly and explicitly states that NI is part of the UK's customs territory. Devolved arrangements whether in Scotland or Stormont do not trump that.
    The "administrative differences" reflect substantial (future) regulatory differences, which do have bearing on the interpretation of the law, wrt a substantial part of NI's trade with other territories. They will apply to eg. half of all the agri-food products produced in NI. Similarly substantial differences will emerge as the UK diverges from EU policy in other areas (eg. technical regulation, environmental regulations, state aid etc).
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #4517
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Except that, in your own legislation, you accept a definition whereby the contents of the bag is actually cocaine.
    No it does not.
    Scotland and England are both within the EU, with no substantial regulatory differences between one another wrt trade with other countries.
    The word used was commerce. There are major regulatory differences between one and another wrt trade of some sectors. Try being a practising lawyer in both for instance. One is subject to English Common Law and the other is subject to Scots Law and the two are quite different. Same too in other industries. Quite a few Alcohol regulations and others like that are different in Scotland and England too.

    For a substantial part of the trade of NI with other territories [ie China, USA, Australia, rest of the world] NI will be aligned with the UK except on certain devolved laws such as phytosanitary standards. NI will have some regulations synced, subject to Stormont's devolved consent just as Holyrood has devolved consent over certain regulations. Overall though the UK including NI will be one Customs Territory. As the legally-binding document sets out in black and white. This agreement is legally-binding and will be a part of international law and it puts the UK as a single customs territory under GATT as being paramount and a part of the legally-binding agreement.
    The "administrative differences" reflect substantial (future) regulatory differences, which do have bearing on the interpretation of the law, wrt a substantial part of NI's trade with other territories. They will apply to eg. half of all the agri-food products produced in NI. Similarly substantial differences will emerge as the UK diverges from EU policy in other areas (eg. technical regulation, environmental regulations, state aid etc).
    Half of agri-food . . . big deal. What about the other half? And agri-food is one of the most aligned with the EU there is and you're saying only half on that?

    Yes there will be some devolved standards but then devolution exists today already. Devolution doesn't break up a customs territory.

    There are great differences between EU nations on certain commerce standards, not every industry is harmonised and the EU is still one customs territory. Indeed back in 1993 a lot less was harmonised than now and still the EU was one customs territory. Customs territories can have differences within them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #4518
    Polling getting better but won't count any chickens until we get the exit poll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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