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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #4591
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're not confused you're starting to get it.

    We had sovereignty because we could leave but if we didn't leave we had to go along with whatever the EU decided. But since we hadn't chosen to leave that was tacitly our choice. In order to exercise our sovereignty we needed to leave and make our own decisions.
    No, I'm really not getting it all. We've always had sovereignty. You just want "more" of it. You think the benefits of that outweigh the cost and risk whereas I don't.

  2. #4592
    I also don't think we'll be anything other than a rule taker, but I do that no we're going into trade negotiations in aweaker position than we did whilst in the EU. I also don't have confidence that our political leaders will be able to get better deals than we currently have. The EU, as a collaborative collective, have far greater expertise in trade negotiations than we do.

  3. #4593
    I don't want to notionally have sovereignty for the sake of notionally having sovereignty, I want to exercise sovereignty because I think its the right thing to do.

    What we had was lets say constitutional sovereignty. Like our constitutional monarchy it was there in theory, it had the trappings, but it was gone in practice. The only way for the monarch to unilaterally exercise their powers would be to upend our constitution and likely result in the abolition of the monarchy. The only way for us to exercise our sovereignty was to leave the EU and take back control.

    Absolutely we can debate the benefits and costs and we should, but some sort of "gotcha" claiming we always had sovereignty is meaningless because it misses the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #4594
    I don't want notional sovereignty either, but it's not a "gotcha" to say we had sovereignty whilst in the EU. It's a fact. We are a sovereign nation. Saying "take back control" is a gotcha implying we never had control.

    If you think we'll be "sovereign" outside the EU, with a head of state, house of lords and two party electorial system then I just don't understand your position at all. As said, you seem to want more, for reasons I still don't understand.

  5. #4595
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    I don't think Randy is xenophobic or loathes to be European, for the record. I think he believes we'll be more prosperous outside the EU; I've just never been persuaded by his arguments.
    I am convinced of it. For the simple reason that he expresses it very clearly; in his thinking about sovereignty the problem is that he finds it unacceptable that British sovereignty should be reined in by what he feels is the 'other'. It is also obvious that he doesn't have such reservations against people who carry a British passport (I am in a friendly mood today). With them he is willing to share his sovereignty.

    But anyway, in little over 25 hours my fellow citizens and I can wash our hands of your brexiteers; the damage they cause to your country and union is no longer a problem of ours.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #4596
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    I don't want notional sovereignty either, but it's not a "gotcha" to say we had sovereignty whilst in the EU. It's a fact. We are a sovereign nation. Saying "take back control" is a gotcha implying we never had control.

    If you think we'll be "sovereign" outside the EU, with a head of state, house of lords and two party electorial system then I just don't understand your position at all. As said, you seem to want more, for reasons I still don't understand.
    The Head of State is a meaningless figurehead who wields no political power. I am a republican, but its not the end of the world for me.
    The House of Lords is a revising chamber that thanks to the Parliament Act can not overrule the House of Commons.
    The electoral system is great. It means we determine (and can change our minds at future elections) who passes the laws after debating politics.

    At the last general election you can not pretend that it would make little difference whether Labour or Conservatives won the election. The public made their choice, next time they can make a different choice. That is control. That is what matters and going forwards that will apply to all our domestic laws not just those that the EU haven't taken control over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #4597
    So to summarise, we've always been a sovereign nation that's always had "control", and at the end of the year we get a little bit more.

    And to point out, the public make a choice at European elections. Next time they can make a difference choice. By your definition that's control.

  8. #4598
    We had control over whether we would stay or go yes, absolutely. As of the end of the year we will have control over all laws and regulations individually rather than just whether we stay or go.

    Ah the Europen Elections. Sure. With a dodgy electoral system and a dodgy demos that meant there was never a proper democratic scrutiny or control.

    Pop quiz, please give an honest answer without Googling.

    1: When was the last year in your opinion that the UK due to a democratic election changed course. Ditto for the EU.
    2: At the last UK General Election which specific policies, laws and regulations do you remember being debated in detail with differing proposals depending upon who won the election? Ditto for the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #4599
    1. 1.) 2016. B.) I don't know.

    2. A.) Lots. B.) None.

    I can probably save you some trouble here: we -will- gain more "sovereignty" by leaving the EU. The EU -is- democratic, but like our system it's not perfect. I see the deficiencies on par to ours, or other similar functioning democracies. The EU have always needed to do a better job in engaging its citizens with the election process, although the UK media have failed miserably in their responsibility in regard to this.

  10. #4600
    Good answers, thanks for being honest. Could have chosen other dates than 2016 but 2016 is certainly unequivocal. The fact that your B) answers are I don't know and None demonstrate the flaws of the EU's system in practice.

    Maybe in decades to come the EU will evolve a demos that can debate politics at elections and change course at elections but I don't want to wait decades to have democratic control. Democracy matters to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #4601
    One rather amusing coincidence is that Sky News and Sky Sports News are both currently running a countdown with the exact same time remaining. I'm curious if more people are bothered today by Brexit or the Transfer Deadline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #4602
    Agreed on all points, apart from your assertion that we don't have "democratic control" in the EU already. As we've explored, sovereignty and control exist on a spectrum. Leaving the EU won't sudden give us 100% sovereignty or control; not with our political system. It'll just give us a little bit more.

    Talking in absolutes was one of the biggest failures on both sides of the argument. But it clearly appeals to the British public.

  13. #4603
    You say little, I say lot, either way we agree it'll give us more.

    The question in my eyes boils down to whether sacrificing that control via remaining in is worth it for the benefits of membership. That again exists on a spectrum. How much do you value the increased control we will gain? How much do you value membership? Its not a simple question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #4604
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm curious if more people are bothered today by Brexit or the Transfer Deadline.
    The arguments for/against Brexit have been done over the last couple of years ad infinitum.

    Everyone has accepted it is now happening, everyone is fucking fed up with the discussion, there is nothing left to debate and even less appetite to do so.

    There is now more merit in discussing the Transfer deadline, yes.

    ~

    In a few years time, once banks have headquartered elsewhere due to it being more expensive to conduct financial services in the City post-Brexit, it is no longer the finance centre of the world, the trillion-dollar euro-clearings business is no longer conducted from London, the UK has lost its main cash-cow and the size of the economy is slashed, then we can revisit the 'merits' of Brexit. Until then, West Ham win the race to sign Hull City forward Jarrod Bowen with 22m transfer agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  15. #4605
    It's a very complex question, just like this entire debate, which is why taking in slogans and absolutes is so childish and unhelpful. One of the reasons I despise the current government.

    I can't put a value on that increased sovereignty. It'll depend on the outcomes and whether we can keep up at the same rate, for a cheaper cost, and in a similar collaborative nature as we currently do. As JRM said, it could take 50 years until we can measure that.

    I value membership hugely. Fundamentally because I believe we are stronger in several sense when collaborating with other nations, and the EU is a great enabler of that. For around 2% of our GDP and the benefits and opportunities it brings, its always seemed like good value to me.

  16. #4606
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    I think once the UK has left the Union, all Brits are in for a rude awakening. Not only will there be a mass cull of unicorns, but also will the relationship with the UK from the side of the Union purely transactional. No declaration of friendship is going to matter.

    From the Union the Scottish Parliament flying our flag will just look odd.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  17. #4607
    The Scottish Parliament lot are odd I completely agree. Hard to imagine the Quebecois flying the USA flag.

    Unicorns like that the UK needs the EU, or that the UK is going to swiftly rejoin etc will be culled. There's already been a mass culling of Remainer Unicorns from the election onwards as reality has started to dawn on people that this is actually happening.

    Given we've debated Britain's relationship with Europe for about 18 or 19 years now (I can't remember if it was 2001 or 2002 we started to debate the Euro on the old GT Forums) I would like to mark today's departure with a comment I hope you can agree with . . .

    . . . I don't believe the UK ever will rejoin the EU once we're out, but if we do it should be as full members of the project. No repeat of the half-in, half-out nonsense that has divided us ever further since the Maastricht debates onwards. If Britain were to rejoin the EU it must be as full members: currency, Schengen and all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #4608
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Positive signs that we have the right PM for the forthcoming trade talks.


    I do have a question about this. If you engage in a trade deal, that generally includes agreements on regulations and arbitration, right? Which are also binding unless you drop the trade deal.

    If I am right about that, how can you rule out any 'alignment' with the EU in this future trade deal, if any trade deal with any country will include that to some extent? Is the discussion not about what level of alignment you're willing to accept rather than whether you'll have any? It just sounds like a meaningless boast to me.

    Also, do you realise that making your own regulations for everything, which aren't aligned with other countries, you'll just increase overhead for companies which either export from the UK or import to the UK which will hurt your economy. Companies are not wild about having to prove compliance again for each country.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #4609
    There's a difference between bilateral arbitration of disputes about pre-agreed rules and one party being able to rewrite rules as they please while the other stays stuck in lockstep.

    It may make sense for some industries to keep aligned, while others vary. That will be our choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #4610
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    There's a difference between bilateral arbitration of disputes about pre-agreed rules and one party being able to rewrite rules as they please while the other stays stuck in lockstep.

    It may make sense for some industries to keep aligned, while others vary. That will be our choice.
    Actually it will not be your choice, regardless of the legal terms. As for equal arbitration, you can forget about that too. It's not going to happen. You can claim all the sovereignty you want, but you will not have any say in the making of EU regulations. That power you will give up tonight at midnight. And you will not be able to negotiate it back.

    I doubt I will live to see the UK back as a member of the Union. The upcoming period is going to be ugly for the EU to stay very popular in the UK even with Remainers. And given our experience with the UK as a half in half out member I doubt conditions for your return would be less than full membership without opt outs.

    I'm not going to wish you good luck, because I want my side to come better out of this than yours.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  21. #4611
    Don't be a sore loser. I pity you, jealousy isn't a good luck on you.

    The people have had their say and we are departing peacefully. Get over it. I do wish you good luck, I don't want an economic disaster union on my doorstep, I hope you can get over your issues.

    Tonight is a victory for democracy, peace and patience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #4612
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    Rubbish. Tonight is the beginning of the costs of division being allocated. And I don't want to get stuck with the bill for your bad choices.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  23. #4613


    10 minutes to go!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #4614
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...d=tmg_share_tw

    What an asshole. Just imagine if we had meddled in the referendum. And now this fuckwit wants to spread the lunacy.

    If you do that it's a declaration of war, you asshole.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  25. #4615
    Au revoir! We're out.

    Best of luck in the future, we can be good neighbours now rather than bad tenants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #4616
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    Au revoir expresses a desire to come back. But it was to be expected you couldn't even get that right.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  27. #4617
    It is au revoir not goodbye, I got that right. We're leaving the EU but we are not saying goodbye and we will meet again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #4618
    Over to you, leavers. You own this. You better make it work.

    Now would be a good time to explain and unleash all those tangible and quantifiable benefits we'll be getting, and outlining the grand vision and strategy for the nation over the next 10 years.

    And by the way, the contempt for remainers will continue. When things go wrong remainers will be blamed. When things go right remainers will be taunted. We'll take the place as the grand scapegoat.

    Bleak times ahead.

  29. #4619

  30. #4620
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Over to you, leavers. You own this. You better make it work.

    Now would be a good time to explain and unleash all those tangible and quantifiable benefits we'll be getting, and outlining the grand vision and strategy for the nation over the next 10 years.

    And by the way, the contempt for remainers will continue. When things go wrong remainers will be blamed. When things go right remainers will be taunted. We'll take the place as the grand scapegoat.

    Bleak times ahead.
    I have no contempt for remainers, but I pity those like Hazir who can't let go yet and want this to be nasty.

    I agree we need to own this now and I'm delighted that we have a government that can do so not the paralysed hung Parliament of the last few years.

    It seems positive that the government is currently dealing with many issues that have been kicked into the long grass by prior governments - a decision reached on Huawei, an imminent decision on HS2 etc - its time to stop prevaricating and to act.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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