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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #5071
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The Cabinet Secretary (who is a civil servant not a politician) disagrees.
    Lmao, so fucking what? writing "this is not cocaine" on a bag of cocaine doesn't magically transform its contents; the Cabinet Secretary trying to overrule the courts in order to facilitate illegal conduct—that violates both international law and the ministerial code—doesn't make that conduct okay. What's more, the Cabinet Secretary has no authority to make a determination that civil servants can violate the law. Do you know who might have that authority as well as the requisite legal knowledge? The Treasury Solicitor and head of the govt's legal service—a man who resigned in protest of the govt's insistence on breaking the law. The Cabinet Secretary, in contrast, is not a lawyer—he's a flunky who owes Boris Johnson. Like the Trump admin, Johnson's govt. has sought to replace principled civil servants and ministers with less principled ones, who are more inclined to permit or outright facilitate the govt's illegal shenanigans. But, just because you can get a flunky to say that something illegal is not in fact illegal, it doesn't mean that laws and court rulings on the basis of which the determination of legality must be made are magically overturned. You are revealing, once again, your lack of principles—and your inner Trumpist.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  2. #5072
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The Cabinet Secretary (who is a civil servant not a politician) disagrees.
    And you know who actually decides what is legal and what is not? And what the law requires of a position?

    Courts.

    Which weirdly enough already have decided on that matter.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  3. #5073
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And you know who actually decides what is legal and what is not? And what the law requires of a position?

    Courts.

    Which weirdly enough already have decided on that matter.
    The Supreme Court in the Miller case unanimously set the precedent the Cabinet Secretary is following. The Courts are with the Cabinet Secretary on this - and they agreed unanimously when they set their verdict.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #5074
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Lmao, so fucking what? writing "this is not cocaine" on a bag of cocaine doesn't magically transform its contents; the Cabinet Secretary trying to overrule the courts in order to facilitate illegal conduct—that violates both international law and the ministerial code—doesn't make that conduct okay. What's more, the Cabinet Secretary has no authority to make a determination that civil servants can violate the law. Do you know who might have that authority as well as the requisite legal knowledge? The Treasury Solicitor and head of the govt's legal service—a man who resigned in protest of the govt's insistence on breaking the law. The Cabinet Secretary, in contrast, is not a lawyer—he's a flunky who owes Boris Johnson. Like the Trump admin, Johnson's govt. has sought to replace principled civil servants and ministers with less principled ones, who are more inclined to permit or outright facilitate the govt's illegal shenanigans. But, just because you can get a flunky to say that something illegal is not in fact illegal, it doesn't mean that laws and court rulings on the basis of which the determination of legality must be made are magically overturned. You are revealing, once again, your lack of principles—and your inner Trumpist.
    He's not overruling the courts. The Supreme Court in Miller ruled unanimously on this already.

    The Treasury Solicitor isn't disagreeing with the Cabinet Secretary either. He's resigning because he disagrees with breaking international law - that's fine - but he's not disagreeing on the point on the Ministerial Code that as decreed by the Supreme Court by a unanimous verdict in Miller that it is for Parliament to decide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #5075
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The Supreme Court in the Miller case unanimously set the precedent the Cabinet Secretary is following. The Courts are with the Cabinet Secretary on this - and they agreed unanimously when they set their verdict.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    He's not overruling the courts. The Supreme Court in Miller ruled unanimously on this already.

    The Treasury Solicitor isn't disagreeing with the Cabinet Secretary either. He's resigning because he disagrees with breaking international law - that's fine - but he's not disagreeing on the point on the Ministerial Code that as decreed by the Supreme Court by a unanimous verdict in Miller that it is for Parliament to decide.
    You're being stupid. The ruling in the Miller case doesn't permit ministers or civil servants to violate international law. Braverman knows this, and worded the statement to fool idiots.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #5076
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You're being stupid. The ruling in the Miller case doesn't permit ministers or civil servants to violate international law. Braverman knows this, and worded the statement to fool idiots.
    Within UK law it absolutely does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #5077
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Within UK law it absolutely does.
    The ruling does not permit ministers and civil servants to violate international law. Braverman knows this, and has not been able to substantiate any claim to the contrary (and neither have you).
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #5078
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Within UK law it absolutely does.
    Your precious UK law states that civil servants may not violate the law. Which your court explicitly stated that this includes international law.

    Are you stupid or something? Trumptard. Seriously: I rank you now among Trumptards and Nazi collaborators - you use the same "logic", the same excuses and have shown yourself to be a craven, despicable human being with no spine at all. You'd march in lockstep with any dictator as long as he professes to be all about "choice" or some other idiocy you cling to in your desperate attempt to feel valid.

    Oh, and parliament decides? Nice. Over here, we have our constitutional court who then checks if said laws are actually legal (as in: Conforming to the boundaries of our constitution). But given that your country is too lazy to create a proper, logical constitution you rely on traditions your so-called traditionalists then can trample all over as soon as it becomes inconvenient. Who'd have thought that just because something is old (oldest "democracy" my ass!) it does not mean "good"?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  9. #5079
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The ruling does not permit ministers and civil servants to violate international law. Braverman knows this, and has not been able to substantiate any claim to the contrary (and neither have you).
    Yes it does. It doesn't make it legal within international law, but it does make it within the rule of law within the UK.
    No, Boris isn’t breaching the rule of law. Here’s why
    David Wolfson QC

    Does the government threaten the 'rule of law' by asking parliament to vote its way out of a Brexit treaty? The Society of Conservative Lawyers, which has advised Tory thinking since 1947, has released this statement from some members of its executive (on which I also sit) saying they are 'deeply troubled' by the government 'knowingly and deliberately breaching' the rule of law. I agree with my colleagues that 'upholding the rule of law is a fundamental principle of sound government' but I do not consider that there has been a breach of the rule of law in this matter. Briefly, here’s why.

    The 'rule of law' means that all in society, including the government, are subject to the law, and there must be a lawful basis for what the government does or omits to do. Abiding by our obligations under international law, including an international treaty obligation, is part of the rule of law (and this is so regardless of whether domestic law needs to be made or changed in order to implement a treaty). Absent anything else, a government should do so.

    The mere act of laying a bill before parliament which, if it were passed into statute, would breach a treaty obligation (and would amend domestic legislation bringing that treaty obligation into effect in domestic law) is not itself a breach of the treaty or of international law. Nor would merely laying such a bill be itself a breach of the rule of law.

    If the legislature passed such a bill and it became an Act of Parliament, the Rule of Law requires the government to proceed in accordance with it. That is what parliamentary sovereignty, or to be more precise the sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament, means. Whether passing such an Act of Parliament gives rise to a claim under the treaty (to which the domestic legislation is unlikely to be any defence) is a separate issue. But again, there is no breach of the rule of law.

    And what is the alternative proposition? That a government is precluded by the rule of law from even laying a bill before parliament which, if passed, would put the UK in breach of a treaty obligation? Or is it to be said that the rule of law requires that such an Act of Parliament should itself be deemed by our courts to be unlawful or of no consequence?

    I see no legal basis for any such proposition. Such a bill and resultant Act of Parliament might be unwise or foolish or damaging to the UK’s interests (or wise or clever or a show of strength) – those are matters of political debate. But those are not legal questions. Nor can it make any principled difference to the analysis that – to take two points which have been made repeatedly over the past few days – the treaty in question was signed recently, or by the same government.

    Moreover, it is a short step from the analysis that the rule of law would constrain such legislation, or would rob the consequent Act of Parliament of effect, to Lord Carnwath’s proposal (see the Supreme Court’s May 2019 decision in the case concerning the availability of judicial review of decisions of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, at paragraph 144) that in some cases the courts might decline to give effect to a clause in an Act of Parliament ousting judicial review 'regardless of the words used'. That would be unprecedented, and a dramatic and unwelcome departure from the long-established principle that the Crown in Parliament is sovereign.

    Contracts should be honoured and treaties should be kept: so says the (different) principle of pacta sunt servanda. But a breach of contract does not itself entail a breach of the rule of law, and breaching a treaty obligation because parliament has so legislated does not either.

    None of this is to suggest – as some still say – that international law doesn’t exist, nor that treaties don’t matter: of course it does and they do. For its part, the government will argue that preventing part of the territory of the UK from being cut off economically justifies its approach.

    But I do not base my argument on that contention. Rather, I assert a more basic – and (at least formerly) orthodox proposition: in our constitution, ultimate sovereignty lies with the Crown in Parliament. It is that sovereignty to which the government is answerable, and which the rule of law upholds.

    I do not consider that there is a breach of the rule of law in the government’s approach. Whether it is wise or unwise is a different question – a political and not a legal one – and not the subject of this argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #5080
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Your precious UK law states that civil servants may not violate the law. Which your court explicitly stated that this includes international law.

    Are you stupid or something? Trumptard. Seriously: I rank you now among Trumptards and Nazi collaborators - you use the same "logic", the same excuses and have shown yourself to be a craven, despicable human being with no spine at all. You'd march in lockstep with any dictator as long as he professes to be all about "choice" or some other idiocy you cling to in your desperate attempt to feel valid.

    Oh, and parliament decides? Nice. Over here, we have our constitutional court who then checks if said laws are actually legal (as in: Conforming to the boundaries of our constitution). But given that your country is too lazy to create a proper, logical constitution you rely on traditions your so-called traditionalists then can trample all over as soon as it becomes inconvenient. Who'd have thought that just because something is old (oldest "democracy" my ass!) it does not mean "good"?
    They may not break the law, but they can change the law. The mere act of changing the law does not break the law (if it did the law could never be changed) and if the law is changed, then the new law is the rule of law. One law can overwrite another law.

    We have a Supreme Court that can rule on issues the law as set by Parliament, but Parliament is ultimately supreme not the Courts. Parliament creates the law, the Courts interpret it. Actions must be legal within the law and the Courts can rule on that but the law is whatever Parliament says the law is. It is not the we can't be bothered to create a new system, our system works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #5081
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    And so it begins . . .
    According to your own government's estimates that's going to make a difference of 0,07% in your GDP compared with a no deal. They wisely don't compare it to staying under the EU-Japan deal. Which probably means, a lot of effort and money spent on keeping things te same.
    Congratulations America

  12. #5082
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes it does. It doesn't make it legal within international law, but it does make it within the rule of law within the UK.
    What kind of halfwit wrote that? He's not aware of the difference between breaking a treaty and the rules ruling the way states enter into treaties?
    Congratulations America

  13. #5083
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Next up: Scotland decides to "break the law in a very specific and limited way" and secede from the UK without ever consulting Whitehall.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  14. #5084
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They may not break the law, but they can change the law. The mere act of changing the law does not break the law (if it did the law could never be changed) and if the law is changed, then the new law is the rule of law. One law can overwrite another law.

    We have a Supreme Court that can rule on issues the law as set by Parliament, but Parliament is ultimately supreme not the Courts. Parliament creates the law, the Courts interpret it. Actions must be legal within the law and the Courts can rule on that but the law is whatever Parliament says the law is. It is not the we can't be bothered to create a new system, our system works.
    Actually in this specific and limited way trying to change the law (the WA) throught the UKIM is already breaking the law (The Vienna Convention). What the British government is attempting is specifically forbidden.

    Even if you could conjure up some constitutional justification, it would still be forbidden.
    Congratulations America

  15. #5085
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Actually in this specific and limited way trying to change the law (the WA) throught the UKIM is already breaking the law (The Vienna Convention). What the British government is attempting is specifically forbidden.

    Even if you could conjure up some constitutional justification, it would still be forbidden.
    Forbidden by whom?

    Under which authority and which jurisdiction?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #5086
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Forbidden by whom?

    Under which authority and which jurisdiction?
    The Vienna Convention as signed and ratified by your government. The relevant stipulations forbid exactly the justifications your government gave. There are two ways out of the situation. First is undo ratification of the WA. The second is a full uturn and scrapping any proposed law that attempts disapplying parts of the WA.

    The first avenue would lead to a trade war with the EU. And there is next to no limit on the punishments the EU could legally impose. The second is a humiliation of a magnitude not seen since William of Orange took the British throne.

    Oh and of course you could get out of the Convention. But then you can basically forget any international cooperation with the rest of the world. In stead of Singapore in the North sea, you'd be the North Korea of the North Sea.
    Congratulations America

  17. #5087
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I think it's Article 18, isn't it?

    https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instr...s/1_1_1969.pdf

    Article 27 is also interesting...
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  18. #5088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I think it's Article 18, isn't it?

    https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instr...s/1_1_1969.pdf

    Article 27 is also interesting...
    27 is the more relevant one as the WA has already been ratified. Article 18 would require actual violation of the purpose of the treaty, or the British government using the UKIM powers, and this in the framework of the implementation of the protocol.
    Congratulations America

  19. #5089
    I really don't envy the person who's to be prime minister after Johnson. Chances are they'll also be a complete prick, but even so.
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  20. #5090
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Forbidden by whom?

    Under which authority and which jurisdiction?
    Under the VCLT, which you agreed to be bound by. Pacta sunt servanda is one of the foundational principles of international law, and it is codified in the treaty. Several provisions of the VCLT oblige you to refrain from acting in a way that would breach the WA, and explicitly dismiss your arguments for why you should be allowed to do so as invalid. On top of this, your courts have confirmed that it is not permissible for ministers or civil servants to violate international law.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes it does. It doesn't make it legal within international law, but it does make it within the rule of law within the UK.
    It is neither permissible under your own laws or under international law. It is illegal under international law. Your own laws require your ministers and civil servants to refrain from violating international law; consequently, it is also against your own laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Dolt
    Does the government threaten the 'rule of law' by asking parliament to vote its way out of a Brexit treaty? The Society of Conservative Lawyers, which has advised Tory thinking since 1947, has released this statement from some members of its executive (on which I also sit) saying they are 'deeply troubled' by the government 'knowingly and deliberately breaching' the rule of law. I agree with my colleagues that 'upholding the rule of law is a fundamental principle of sound government' but I do not consider that there has been a breach of the rule of law in this matter. Briefly, here’s why.

    The 'rule of law' means that all in society, including the government, are subject to the law, and there must be a lawful basis for what the government does or omits to do. Abiding by our obligations under international law, including an international treaty obligation, is part of the rule of law (and this is so regardless of whether domestic law needs to be made or changed in order to implement a treaty). Absent anything else, a government should do so.

    The mere act of laying a bill before parliament which, if it were passed into statute, would breach a treaty obligation (and would amend domestic legislation bringing that treaty obligation into effect in domestic law) is not itself a breach of the treaty or of international law. Nor would merely laying such a bill be itself a breach of the rule of law.

    If the legislature passed such a bill and it became an Act of Parliament, the Rule of Law requires the government to proceed in accordance with it. That is what parliamentary sovereignty, or to be more precise the sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament, means. Whether passing such an Act of Parliament gives rise to a claim under the treaty (to which the domestic legislation is unlikely to be any defence) is a separate issue. But again, there is no breach of the rule of law.

    [...]

    Contracts should be honoured and treaties should be kept: so says the (different) principle of pacta sunt servanda. But a breach of contract does not itself entail a breach of the rule of law, and breaching a treaty obligation because parliament has so legislated does not either.

    [...]

    For its part, the government will argue that preventing part of the territory of the UK from being cut off economically justifies its approach.
    This is wrong, and it's not surprising that this nitwit's opinion differs from that of his peers in The Society of Conservative Lawyers—to the extent that only Frasier Nelson would publish it. Art. 18 of the VCLT—for example—expressly forbids what he says is permitted. The govt's actions in this matter are manifestly a violation of international law—and, consequently, also a violation of your domestic laws.

    And what is the alternative proposition? That a government is precluded by the rule of law from even laying a bill before parliament which, if passed, would put the UK in breach of a treaty obligation? Or is it to be said that the rule of law requires that such an Act of Parliament should itself be deemed by our courts to be unlawful or of no consequence?

    I see no legal basis for any such proposition. Such a bill and resultant Act of Parliament might be unwise or foolish or damaging to the UK’s interests (or wise or clever or a show of strength) – those are matters of political debate. But those are not legal questions. Nor can it make any principled difference to the analysis that – to take two points which have been made repeatedly over the past few days – the treaty in question was signed recently, or by the same government.
    His argumentation here is super dumb. The alternative proposition is, indeed, that a govt. is precluded by the rule of law from acting in a manner that violates its obligations under international law. In this specific instance, an alternative would have been to back out of the WA in a manner consistent with international and domestic law before implementing the measures that would directly violate it. Another alternative would be to back out of the VCLT in a similar fashion. That he does not recognize this suggests he may be some sort of idiot, or perhaps running low on sleep.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They may not break the law, but they can change the law. The mere act of changing the law does not break the law (if it did the law could never be changed) and if the law is changed, then the new law is the rule of law. One law can overwrite another law.

    We have a Supreme Court that can rule on issues the law as set by Parliament, but Parliament is ultimately supreme not the Courts. Parliament creates the law, the Courts interpret it. Actions must be legal within the law and the Courts can rule on that but the law is whatever Parliament says the law is. It is not the we can't be bothered to create a new system, our system works.
    Sorry, this is not the miraculous loophole you were led to believe it was by Wolfson's asinine opinion-piece. The govt. may not attempt to change the law in a manner that violates the law in and of itself.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  21. #5091
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #5092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I really don't envy the person who's to be prime minister after Johnson. Chances are they'll also be a complete prick, but even so.
    The problem with your entire political class is that they think that they are awfully smart because they could debate in debating societies. When they are elected into office their biggest asset besides looking smart becomes their ability to elbow themselves to higher office. There is barely anything that actually tests them for suitability for an office of state besides getting appointed to an office of state.

    And that's how you wind up with a PM whose biggest talent was being boorish on 'Have I got news for you'.
    Congratulations America

  23. #5093
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's not remotely interesting. If the UK didn't expect any counter pressure against talk about lowering food standards during the negotiations they are even more moronic than we already suspected them to be. It's certainly not a reasonable argument to prop up the notion that you had no idea that the deal you signed up to could have the effect it was intended to have; ensuring that we do not have food products imported from outside the EU that are not up to our standards.

    What this article show is that your PM either is a complete idiot (congratulations for having an idiot for your personal idol) or so completely dishonest that exchange with him is useless.
    Congratulations America

  24. #5094
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    Seems like the Conservatives are doing it again. I wonder who's going to be the next PM.
    Congratulations America

  25. #5095
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Seems like the Conservatives are doing it again. I wonder who's going to be the next PM.
    When Boris eventually goes I hope it is Sunak that replaces him.

    If the next PM is Rishi Sunak then I win £5,000 - I backed him £20 @ 250/1 last year, he's now second favourite after Keir Starmer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #5096
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    Japan - UK deal

    Now that's a real interesting article; one has to wonder why state aid regulation in the treaty with Japan wasn't such a big deal.
    Congratulations America

  27. #5097
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Japan - UK deal

    Now that's a real interesting article; one has to wonder why state aid regulation in the treaty with Japan wasn't such a big deal.
    Its pretty self-explanatory. The state aid regulations in the Japan treaty are reasonable ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #5098
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Its pretty self-explanatory. The state aid regulations in the Japan treaty are reasonable ones.
    What is more reasonable about them? According to the FT they are more strict, apparently, but I don't have a subscription so cannot read the article.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  29. #5099
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    What is more reasonable about them? According to the FT they are more strict, apparently, but I don't have a subscription so cannot read the article.
    No it not what the FT says. They're nothing like what the EU is demanding. They're marginally more strict than what the UK is offering in the negotiations but that's because its a negotiating position whereas this is an actual deal. I'm sure the UK side would be happy to compromise and end up here but if they started here then they'd be expected to compromise and end up further.

    From the FT's article:

    But some lawyers also stressed that the subsidy rules in the Japan bilateral deal were still weak compared with the detailed and invasive EU state aid regime.

    James Webber, a partner at the law firm Shearman & Sterling, said: “It’s a concession of sorts by the UK, but if this is where the negotiations end up, it will be much closer to the UK’s view of the world than the EU’s.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #5100
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No it not what the FT says. They're nothing like what the EU is demanding. They're marginally more strict than what the UK is offering in the negotiations but that's because its a negotiating position whereas this is an actual deal. I'm sure the UK side would be happy to compromise and end up here but if they started here then they'd be expected to compromise and end up further.

    From the FT's article:

    But some lawyers also stressed that the subsidy rules in the Japan bilateral deal were still weak compared with the detailed and invasive EU state aid regime.

    James Webber, a partner at the law firm Shearman & Sterling, said: “It’s a concession of sorts by the UK, but if this is where the negotiations end up, it will be much closer to the UK’s view of the world than the EU’s.”
    Announcing you are going to break an agreed deal in the way you did is not a negotiation stance. It's bad faith in action.
    Congratulations America

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