Go on. Say it.
"Yes we sent 350 million a week to the EU."
Just that.
That was on the bus. Why so hesitant to repeat it? You've been defending it, so what's the problem?
Go on. Say it.
"Yes we sent 350 million a week to the EU."
Just that.
That was on the bus. Why so hesitant to repeat it? You've been defending it, so what's the problem?
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
What a ridiculous defence.
The entire point of the poster was that we'd be able to take that money and sped it on something else, in this case the NHS. If the amount of extra money they said is going to be there isn't going to actually be there because they used the wrong figure, then the statement is still (at best) misleading even if the first part of it is technically correct, taken on it's own.
Also, 350 million a week is a rounding error in the NHS budget.
Just ridiculous bullshit all round.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Yes we sent £350 million a week to the EU.Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
That is what was filed in the Remain backing Government's own accounts.
If you're arguing whether something is correct or not, then being "technically correct" is generally reasonable. The idea that it was a "lie" because it was only "technically correct" is a rather unique proposition.
Thanks. That was lovely.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
If you google the term 'lie by omission' you will find it is, in fact, not a unique position.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Always fun to drag this one out again:
Last edited by Steely Glint; 10-12-2020 at 04:50 PM.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Turkey was joining the EU at the time - a joining process that was endorsed not just by Prime Minister Cameron and Boris Johnson but on this forum by both myself and Hazir (a rare thing we actually agreed on EU-wise).
Turkey's accession was halted following the repression after the failed coup against Erdogan.
This is wrong. 350 million was not sent per week. That is not the "gross" number, even though it is sometimes misleadingly described as the "gross contribution"—it's never contributed. The best analogy is the sticker price before discounts are considered. You don't pay the sticker price—you pay the discounted price. That's the number of £ you "send", which is the real gross sum paid. The net sum is derived from that by accounting for grants and subsidies etc. You are trivially wrong on this issue, and it's embarrassing that you keep trying to argue it. You are also wrong wrt your claim re. the economic benefits of membership not being emphasized—they were emphasized, even though your Fox-lite and Trump-lite media and political ecosystems tried to obfuscate the facts. Even if that hadn't been the case, your position that it's somehow good to let a lie divert the public debate away from the facts... well, it's a pretty shady position to take. But, again, given that you had no issue with Johnson lying on camera about his lies re. Turkey, it's hardly surprising. It's just more than a little hilarious how much of the things you decry about Trump and Trumpism in the US are basically Johnson's and your behavior dialed up a few notches
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
In spite of the powerful Hazir/Randblade endorsement, the accession process had been stalled for years and you know it.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
A more embarrassing issue is that Johnson flat out lied on camera re. using the prospect of Turkish accession as an argument for leaving the EU, during the campaign.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
There was no guarantee of the Rebate remaining indefinitely, already many were saying the Rebate should be abolished and it had been repeatedly slashed in recent years so yes its entirely appropriate to consider the base gross figure when considering our long term future.This is wrong. 350 million was not sent per week. That is not the "gross" number, even though it is sometimes misleadingly described as the "gross contribution"—it's never contributed. The best analogy is the sticker price before discounts are considered. You don't pay the sticker price—you pay the discounted price. That's the number of £ you "send", which is the real gross sum paid. The net sum is derived from that by accounting for grants and subsidies etc. You are trivially wrong on this issue, and it's embarrassing that you keep trying to argue it. You are also wrong wrt your claim re. the economic benefits of membership not being emphasized—they were emphasized, even though your Fox-lite and Trump-lite media and political ecosystems tried to obfuscate the facts. Even if that hadn't been the case, your position that it's somehow good to let a lie divert the public debate away from the facts... well, it's a pretty shady position to take. But, again, given that you had no issue with Johnson lying on camera about his lies re. Turkey, it's hardly surprising. It's just more than a little hilarious how much of the things you decry about Trump and Trumpism in the US are basically Johnson's and your behavior dialed up a few notches
Had we voted Remain there's little reason to believe the Rebate would have remained intact in the next funding round, it didn't in the previous one.
So yes reasonable to use the Gross figure. As the Remain-backing Government's own official accounting used at the time. If its good enough for the Government's official accounts, it is good enough for the side of a bus.
He really is a little shit.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
What lie during the campaign?
Claiming something may hypothetically be true in the future does not mean it is not a lie if you say it is true now, when it is not true. This is how the the thing we call 'time' works.
For example, if I say I speak German because I plan to learn to speak German next year, maybe, that is still a lie.
Just filling you in on basic etiquette about truthfulness that most of us learn as children. Providing a real Grade A service here.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
This is completely irrelevant to the truth-value of the statement on the bus. At the time it was made, it was a false statement—often known as a lie. It is amusing but kinda icky to see the lengths to which you'll go to defend lies and liars.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
"Jimmy hit me!"
Teacher: "Is that true? Telling tales isn't nice"
"No... but I think he was going to"
this is kindergarten level stuff here.
love it.
For my next trick I shall explain to Tories why playing a game that was previously banned during playtime under a new name is still, in fact, banned.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
During the campaign, Vote Leave and Johnson exploited widespread xenophobia by grossly misleading voters about the prospect of Turkey's accession to the EU, and millions of Turks invading the UK. Later, when he was challenged over his and VL's messaging re. this issue, he flat out lied:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...endum-campaignJohnson: Actually, I didn’t say anything about Turkey in the referendum. [...] I didn’t make any remarks about Turkey.
There's already been a long series of posts about his lies and the fucked-up bigotry he's either engaged in (in his role as columnist) or facilitated (in his role as editor), but this is just the most straightforward example of his willingness to exploit xenophobia and lie to the public.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Again the figure in the official accounts was the 350 million a week. True statement. No if's or buts.
Did the official statement say that 350 million was "sent" to the EU? Please provide a source for that claim.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
And all of it was sent to the EU. Nothing remained in the UK.
True story.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
This person paid $1000. It says so right there on the official receipt you guys. No if's, no buts. Just pure facts.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Even this scenario would've made the statement on the bus more truthful. In reality, what was paid—"sent"—was the discounted price.
This person paid $1000. It says so right there on the official receipt you guys. No if's, no buts. Just pure facts.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
What's interesting is that he's decided to double down on trying to defend this smaller but equally indefensible lie instead of trying to defend the more egregious lie re. the remarks about Turkey. I believe the reason for this is that, in RB's political tribe, there is an implicit understanding that some lies are okay, or that some things are okay to lie about—and that this business with the lie on the bus falls into that category. Ofc, that's only true within the tribe of liars.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The ends justify the means.
All the while, he could simply have adopted the position that Boris marketed Brexit a little aggressively and may have exaggerated some figures plastered on a bus. In campaigns, that's what politicians do. It would take nothing away from his arguments why he feels Brexit is a good idea, while simultaneously distancing himself from statements a politician made. A politician, you know, those guys who would never talk bollocks to gain political power. It was as you said, a smaller but equally indefensible lie.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Office for National Statistics Pink Book Chapter 9, Table 9.9
No, that section does not say that £350 million a week was sent to the EU. Moreover, the ONS addressed that lie, specifically, in an explainer published in 2018:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gover...get/2017-10-31In 2018 the UK’s gross contribution to the EU amounted to £20.0 billion; however, this amount of money was never actually transferred to the EU. It is best thought of as a theoretical liability.
This is because before the UK government transfers any money to the EU, the adjustment (or abatement) is applied.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Yes it does say that money is sent to the EU. Under Debit that is the amount listed.
Yes there is an Abatement separately accounted for.
And no anything published in 2018 is not relevant for a conversation in 2016. In 2016 (and since 1999 when the table was first published and has been annually since) the amount listed in the Debit column is the number quoted.
It does not say that that sum is sent to the EU. The abatement is applied before payment, as an instant discount. Though I am thrilled to see that you can read section headings, I would've been happier if you understood the entries under those headings. Extremely dismayed at the thought that your political leaders, rather than being shameless liars, might simply be sloppy and lazy readers like you.
The explainer in 2018 addressed the lie from 2016, but what was true in 2018 wrt the way the rebate worked was also true when the lie about the payments was told in 2016—which is why the same explanation was given in the FullFact article about that lie that was published in 2016, prior to the referendum itself. You have been referred to that article previously, so you must know of its existence. But, if you had forgotten, here it is:
https://fullfact.org/europe/membership-fee-eu/
The claim that the UK sends £350 million per week to the EU is wrong.
This is what we would send to the EU if it wasn’t for the UK’s budget rebate. The rebate is effectively an instant discount on what we would otherwise be liable for—the ‘gross contribution’.
[...]
The Treasury and the European Commission have both confirmed to us that the actual payment is the gross contribution minus the rebate.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Yes that article confirms that the £350m is the gross figure and the net figure is £250m
Just as I said forty four posts ago.
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