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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #5431
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're putting the cart before the horse. The IM and Finance bills are our insurance policy, our backstop if you will.

    They will be dropped if there's a deal, not vice versa.
    And we are supposed to strike a deal with a party that inserted its own get out of jail card in the last one? I think we're better off with no deal at all so that we can regulate our relationship with you unilaterally.
    Congratulations America

  2. #5432
    Yes, you are. If you want a deal.

    Probably next time simply don't try and insert a "jail clause" because no self-respecting country would ever abide by one.

    I'm quite happy for us to regulate our relationship with you unilaterally too if it comes to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #5433
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    Except for the fact that you can't. Because you are too unimportant.

    Enjoy all the herring.
    Congratulations America

  4. #5434
    We're a major global economic power, a G7 economy. Not unimportant by any means. Forecast to potentially overtake Germany as the largest individually economy in Europe this century.

    You can do what you want in your protectionist bloc if you want to, but you can't exert power on us beyond that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #5435
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    You are a small island economy of the coast of Europe. None of things you mentioned is going to change that. Our rules will be more important for you than whatever you decide independently.
    Congratulations America

  6. #5436
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Probably next time simply don't try and insert a "jail clause" because no self-respecting country would ever abide by one.
    "No self-respecting country would abide by the provisions of a treaty it has negotiated and signed" is a statement that's just dripping with self-respect innit

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're putting the cart before the horse. The IM and Finance bills are our insurance policy, our backstop if you will.
    Sure, in the same way that telling your girlfriend you intend to sleep with her best friend in a few years' time is insurance against her rejecting you when you propose.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #5437
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    What Rand still does not get: Any and all trade treaties rely on a partial cessation of sovereignty.

    Insisting on total sovereignty is akin to saying that you do not want any trade agreement. North Korea comes to mind. They're so sovereign!

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Forecast to potentially overtake Germany as the largest individually economy in Europe this century.
    Yeah. Was that from before or after Brexit? Before the pandemic?

    Also, any other things your soothsayers pulled out of their ass gleaned from their crystal balls? You realize that we're talking about a timespan of 80 years here?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  8. #5438
    We're projected to have a much higher population isn't the great argument he thinks it is.

    FWIW, there is no actual decrease in sovereignty from a treaty that was entered willingly. Sovereignty means the freedom to make important decisions without too much foreign interference (some always exists); it does not mean freedom from consequences for bad decisions. Though I could see why Brexiters would make that mistake.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #5439
    I see a lot of people say that it's common for the EU to agree deals at the last minute, or "at the 11th hour", but I'm not entirely sure I understand that. Aren't deals without a time-limit like this one always agreed "at the last minute"? Has a time-limit ever applied to EU deals before?

    I really hope there's a deal. Really, really hope there's a deal.

  10. #5440
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're putting the cart before the horse. The IM and Finance bills are our insurance policy, our backstop if you will.

    They will be dropped if there's a deal, not vice versa.
    De Pfeffel doesn't agree with you.
    Congratulations America

  11. #5441
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    I see a lot of people say that it's common for the EU to agree deals at the last minute, or "at the 11th hour", but I'm not entirely sure I understand that. Aren't deals without a time-limit like this one always agreed "at the last minute"? Has a time-limit ever applied to EU deals before?

    I really hope there's a deal. Really, really hope there's a deal.
    No. The 'going to the wire' people report about these negotiations as if the UK were still a member. We've never negotiated with a third country under a self inflicted deadline. But De Pfeffel is rather stupid.
    Congratulations America

  12. #5442
    Looks like BoJo and UvdL are going to talk about it themselves as the final act.

    Am I correct in thinking that UvdL has no authority to change anything about the EU's negotiating strategy?

  13. #5443
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    Not entirely, she is fully in charge of the negotiating strategy. However, she would be working within the constraints of the same mandate as Barnier. Which means she has no more powers than he had to cross the red lines on the level playing field (which is by far the hardest dossier in the negotiations. In a way your PM is coming to Brussels to talk with our highest civil servant.

    De Pfeffel was extremely stupid when he set his own hard deadlines, it made him end up in the present situation where he's got to make a choice between two dogs dinners.
    Last edited by Hazir; 12-07-2020 at 07:53 PM.
    Congratulations America

  14. #5444
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    De Pfeffel doesn't agree with you.
    Yes he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Looks like BoJo and UvdL are going to talk about it themselves as the final act.

    Am I correct in thinking that UvdL has no authority to change anything about the EU's negotiating strategy?
    Exactly what I always said would happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    I see a lot of people say that it's common for the EU to agree deals at the last minute, or "at the 11th hour", but I'm not entirely sure I understand that. Aren't deals without a time-limit like this one always agreed "at the last minute"? Has a time-limit ever applied to EU deals before?

    I really hope there's a deal. Really, really hope there's a deal.
    Yes regularly. Especially during the Eurozone crisis they were constantly going to the wire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #5445
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    And BlowJob is going to blow it. And then blame us.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  16. #5446
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    See how the resident Brexitard doesn't understand what happened 11 months ago. He doesn't understand the UK no longer is a member of the EU. De Pfeffel no longer is one of the people who play that game. He's not invited to the arena. He can talk to the help though.
    Congratulations America

  17. #5447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And BlowJob is going to blow it. And then blame us.
    Honestly, you know anybody who gives a toss who the Brexitards are going to blame for the fact that Brexit actually means leaving the EU?
    Congratulations America

  18. #5448
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Exactly what I always said would happen..
    You're amazing; well done!

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes regularly. Especially during the Eurozone crisis they were constantly going to the wire.
    Were they trade negotiations? Any source would be interesting.

  19. #5449
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    You're amazing; well done!


    Were they trade negotiations? Any source would be interesting.
    They were not, it's extremely unusual for trade negotiations to haven an actual deadline. Also, they were end-negotiations between people who between themselves could decide. No last minute negotiations on the principles of long term relations.

    Something that makes talks between the EU and UK so extremely difficult is the utter lack of understanding of how the EU works on the UK side. Which is a remarkable achievement given that the UK was a member for over 40 years.
    Congratulations America

  20. #5450
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    And at least some semblance of sanity prevailed: Breaking international law is off the table.

    Seems that someone on the UK side finally got his act together.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #5451
    The Joint Committee has done its job rendering the law breaking redundant. That was only ever a backstop in case the Joint Committee stonewalled, as I said all along. Glad I've been proven right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #5452
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The Joint Committee has done its job rendering the law breaking redundant. That was only ever a backstop in case the Joint Committee stonewalled, as I said all along. Glad I've been proven right.
    It's really quite weird to see you so pleased with the UK unnecessarily shitting its own pants by preparing to break international in anticipation of a problem that would likely have been resolved anyway. While you should be grateful the EU gave you a means of saving face by letting you climb down from the untenable position of being wilful lawbreakers, the reality is that the damage to your reputation has already been done. The stink will adhere to your nation for half a generation.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #5453
    I don't give a fuck about "breaking international law" though. All nations do it from time to time. The UK has done it before. I have always said the UK can do it haven't I?

    Germany did the same recently, I don't recall any bedwetting or shitting trousers about it then. The UK does it, not for the first time, not for the last time, and all of a sudden you're aghast like a cartoon 1950s woman seeing a mouse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #5454
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't give a fuck about "breaking international law" though. All nations do it from time to time. The UK has done it before. I have always said the UK can do it haven't I?

    Germany did the same recently, I don't recall any bedwetting or shitting trousers about it then. The UK does it, not for the first time, not for the last time, and all of a sudden you're aghast like a cartoon 1950s woman seeing a mouse.
    It is extremely rare for a modern democracy to break international law by wilfully violating its negotiated treaty obligations. Some kinds of international law can be tested or outright broken without it being a huge deal, but violating treaty obligations is exceedingly rare—hence the reaction to the UK indicating its willingness to shit its own pants as some sort of "insurance". Pacta sunt servanda remains a foundational principle of international law as well as basic human morality; only good-for-nothing shitheads whose own word cannot be trusted defend nations breaking their word.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #5455
    Bullshit. Nations do it all the time, your whinging and whining is self-serving put on affectation that convinces nobody. You're preaching to your own choir.

    The rest of the world understands all this back and forth is just a part of the Brexit process and don't care about it - which is why the UK was able to sign new deals with Japan and Canada in the days afterwards while you were still claiming that nobody would trust the UK again.

    Nations pull power moves all the time and do what they can get away with all the time. If you're outraged then get used to it, every country does it and now we're an independent country we can and should be comfortable to do it whenever it suits our own interests just as everyone else already does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #5456
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    now we're an independent country
    I'm interested to know what you mean by this. Do you mean England?

    I'm glad we've backed down. We should have never threatened to renege on parts of a treaty we agreed to only a few months ago and we'd have been furious if the EU had done the same. I hope this brings us closer to a deal.

    Also, if law breaking like this is so common, mainstream and not a big deal, I'm sure the HoL would have approved it. I don't think it's as trivial as you believe it to be.
    Last edited by gogobongopop; 12-08-2020 at 04:40 PM.

  27. #5457
    I don't think breaking international law is ever something to be just glossed over.

    Laws and treaties are written and agreed to for good reason, and commitment to be bound by them never taken lightly.

    And saying "nations do it all the time" is also piss-poor reasoning to do so yourself. Not that I am aware of such things being broken all the time.
    Last edited by Timbuk2; 12-08-2020 at 07:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  28. #5458
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    Brexitard doesn't understand that part of the reason why his country can't get a fta with its biggest trade partner lies in the willingness to break the law.
    Congratulations America

  29. #5459
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Bullshit. Nations do it all the time
    By all means, give us ten examples, from the past ten years, of nations similar to the UK preparing to renege on their negotiated treaty obligations outright, in a self-confessed violation of international law.

    The rest of the world understands all this back and forth is just a part of the Brexit process and don't care about it - which is why the UK was able to sign new deals with Japan and Canada in the days afterwards while you were still claiming that nobody would trust the UK again.
    Prominent American politicians expressed a range of views ranging from concern to outright condemnation, going so far as to indicate that a UK-US trade agreement would not get through congress if the UK were to violate the provisions of the WA wrt NI. That this ridiculous move did not immediately halt nearly finalized negotiations on the roll-over of unrelated treaties is no indication of anything; Japan was able to wait to see how it would play out before having to ratify, and is also able to take the UK's actions into consideration in future negotiations for accession to CPTPP.

    Nations pull power moves all the time and do what they can get away with all the time. If you're outraged then get used to it, every country does it and now we're an independent country we can and should be comfortable to do it whenever it suits our own interests just as everyone else already does.
    I'm sorry but this is delusional nonsense. You'd be hard-pressed to find many modern examples of comparable nations willfully attempting to break treaty obligations in what they themselves acknowledge to be a violation of international law. Like I said: give us ten examples, from the past ten years, of nations similar to the UK preparing to renege on their negotiated treaty obligations outright, in a self-confessed violation of international law.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #5460
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Like I said: give us ten examples, from the past ten years, of nations similar to the UK preparing to renege on their negotiated treaty obligations outright, in a self-confessed violation of international law.
    I'd also like evidence that in those examples the actions were accepted and supported by both the national and international community.

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