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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #541
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I think that you have no clue on how any of this works. Jesus Christ.
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  2. #542
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I'm just taking Hazir's own words and turning them back like a mirror. We are negotiating with the EU aren't we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm just taking Hazir's own words and turning them back like a mirror. We are negotiating with the EU aren't we?
    Actually, what you did was write some of the usual nonsense when you write about the relations between the EU and UK. What's funnier is that your government holds the same silly notion of getting your way with some silly bending of definitions.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  4. #544
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I called them a country, I did not call them a sovereign state. They are countries.

    You're right you are dealing with the government of the United Kingdom, which is itself dealing with the European Union. Or are you saying we should be negotiating with France, Germany etc independently?
    Ultimately, any deal will have to satisfy France, Germany, etc.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  5. #545
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Ultimately, any deal will have to satisfy France, Germany, etc.
    Indeed and any deal would realistically also need to satisfy England, Scotland etc. But they're not the ones at the negotiations. It is the EU and the UK. Everyone else needs to be taken into account but are not at the table at this stage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #546
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Are you trying to tell us Scotland could veto any deal the British negotiators arrive at with the EU members?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Are you trying to tell us Scotland could veto any deal the British negotiators arrive at with the EU members?
    He will say yes, but the reality is that they only could vote down any re-distribution of returning powers from Brussels. Of course that could make it very difficult for the UK government to be good for its word.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  8. #548
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Are you trying to tell us Scotland could veto any deal the British negotiators arrive at with the EU members?
    No. Jjust as any ultimate Article 50 deal will be determined under the EU's rules of QMV as determined by Article 50 clause 2 of the TEU ... so too would any Parliamentary approval of the deal in the UK be determined by traditional Parliamentary requirements.

    However in reality the EU will struggle to approve a deal that one member vehemently disagrees with despite there being no formal veto. So too in reality would Scotland's vehement opposition to a particular deal (as opposed to the concept of exit in the first place) be a de facto if not de jure veto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    He will say yes
    No he won't ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No. Jjust as any ultimate Article 50 deal will be determined under the EU's rules of QMV as determined by Article 50 clause 2 of the TEU ... so too would any Parliamentary approval of the deal in the UK be determined by traditional Parliamentary requirements.

    However in reality the EU will struggle to approve a deal that one member vehemently disagrees with despite there being no formal veto. So too in reality would Scotland's vehement opposition to a particular deal (as opposed to the concept of exit in the first place) be a de facto if not de jure veto.
    No he won't ...
    EU members have a formal veto on any post-Brexit agreement. Spain has even gotten a Gibraltar specific say in the matter.

    Looking forward to parity Randy?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  10. #550
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Source on the formal veto please. Article 50 says QMV.

    Spain and Gibraltar is redundant. If Spain has a veto then they can exercise that veto for any reason they want: Gibraltar or otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #551
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Source on the formal veto please. Article 50 says QMV.
    Exit and post-exit are not the same thing. Despite your government's repeated efforts to do post-exit agreements before the exit actually happens.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #552
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Article 50 states that the EU needs to "negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union."

    So I don't think suggesting the negotiations should take account of the framework for our future relationship with the EU is an unreasonable request. It only makes sense to negotiate post-exit relations as part of the exit procedure (which is why it was put in there) as if we negotiated post-exit arrangements after the exit there would be nothing in the interregnum. Which is nobodies best interests
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Source on the formal veto please. Article 50 says QMV.

    Spain and Gibraltar is redundant. If Spain has a veto then they can exercise that veto for any reason they want: Gibraltar or otherwise.
    The ECJ Singapore ruling. In this case the ECJ ruled that any agreement going beyond trade matters only is subject to the unanimity rules.

    The Spain rule is not redundant as Spain can both accept the agreement and exclude Gibraltar from its application. The choice would be for the UK to accept this exclusion or not.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  14. #554
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Again if Spain has a veto it could do that anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #555
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The ECJ Singapore ruling. In this case the ECJ ruled that any agreement going beyond trade matters only is subject to the unanimity rules.
    Well any deal regarding the exit of the UK (eg legacy rights for citizens like we were discussing earlier) would uniquely be covered by the Article 50 negotiations specifically covered by Article 50 as QMV and not be equivalent to the Singapore ruling.

    But with regards to the Singapore ruling that actually narrowed rather than increased the involvement of Parliaments. It ruled the EU could have passed the agreement independently were it not for two provisions. So one solution would be to narrow the focus of a new deal which would be covered then by QMV and not unanimity. As discussed by this article in the FT which is famously Europhile and Brexitsceptic so not some loony Brexit British press ravings: https://www.ft.com/content/f9cf18e4-...9-b01cc67cfeec

    Though my preferred option is to act as if there is a de facto veto and reach a deal that keeps everyone happy. Playing silly buggers to score points is not the way to build a fruitful long term relationship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Well any deal regarding the exit of the UK (eg legacy rights for citizens like we were discussing earlier) would uniquely be covered by the Article 50 negotiations specifically covered by Article 50 as QMV and not be equivalent to the Singapore ruling.

    But with regards to the Singapore ruling that actually narrowed rather than increased the involvement of Parliaments. It ruled the EU could have passed the agreement independently were it not for two provisions. So one solution would be to narrow the focus of a new deal which would be covered then by QMV and not unanimity. As discussed by this article in the FT which is famously Europhile and Brexitsceptic so not some loony Brexit British press ravings: https://www.ft.com/content/f9cf18e4-...9-b01cc67cfeec

    Though my preferred option is to act as if there is a de facto veto and reach a deal that keeps everyone happy. Playing silly buggers to score points is not the way to build a fruitful long term relationship.
    You understand your preferences or that of your government are totally irrelevant? As in; so irrelevant your opinions should be held to yourself? We will broaden or narrow down as suits our interests and we will decide on the outcome on the basis of our own rules and own interests.

    We have seen your silly notions of the importance of what you think we should decide in the case of the EBA and the EMA; while your Brexit minister was still thinking up plans to keep those in London we were already moving ahead with removing them from London. A privilege you may even find yourself left with the bill for.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  17. #557
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I called them a country, I did not call them a sovereign state. They are countries.

    You're right you are dealing with the government of the United Kingdom, which is itself dealing with the European Union. Or are you saying we should be negotiating with France, Germany etc independently?
    "Country" is a term that has absolutely no legal or political meaning.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #558
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    As part of these proposals, the Telegraph understands the Prime Minister is to offer free movement to Irish citizens in and out of Britain after the UK leaves the EU.

    The establishment of a new “Schengen area” between the two countries is the key plank of a deal the Government hopes will help solve the issue of the the Irish border after Brexit.
    As read in the Telegraph.

    It's so ludicrous it barely merits a comment. The use of the term 'Schengen' for whatever scheme they have come up with shows again how little they understand of what they are dealing with. Schengen has got nothing to do with the concept of free movement for EU/EEA citizens. Schengen merely coordinates the visa requirements for third country citizens, it doesn't regulate residency or work rights.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  19. #559
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No need for the term Schengen a pre existing term already exists. The Common Travel Area (CTA). It is even already enshrined in EU Treaties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No need for the term Schengen a pre existing term already exists. The Common Travel Area (CTA). It is even already enshrined in EU Treaties.
    And yet it is your government* proposing a new scheme 'akin to Schengen' .

    *The government you voted for.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  21. #561
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    If you believe every article printed in the press . . .

    . . . and I've never claimed or pretended to be a sycophantic supporter of everything my government backs. If I did, I would have voted Remain as my government that I voted for recommended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you believe every article printed in the press . . .

    . . . and I've never claimed or pretended to be a sycophantic supporter of everything my government backs. If I did, I would have voted Remain as my government that I voted for recommended.
    And yet you voted to keep a woman in power with an obsession about immigration.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  23. #563
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Given the alternative was a man with an obsession about socialism and thinks the UK needs to be more like Venezuela I would do so again in a heartbeat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Given the alternative was a man with an obsession about socialism and thinks the UK needs to be more like Venezuela I would do so again in a heartbeat.
    I am certain there were more parties on your ballot paper. If you didn't want to vote for one batty future for the UK that doesn't count as an excuse to put your pen to the other batty future for the country presented.

    Also, let's not forget you voted yes in a referendum that made it all possible.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  25. #565
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    The Tory manifesto was the least batty of them all.

    I voted on a constitutional matter that matters far more than transient political trends. Or a policy to reduce immigration that had been in the government's manifesto twice before the referendum already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #566
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    That just means you voted for that policy consistently.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #567
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    Oops... appearantly Merkel doesn't see Brexit as a EU priority.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  28. #568
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    That just means you voted for that policy consistently.
    I've voted for the party I believe in consistently yes. Politics is about compromises sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #569
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    Voting for a party that will put batshit crazies in charge is not a compromise.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  30. #570
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Which is why I didn't vote Labour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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