Your proposal boils down to stripping people of all their rights as EU citizens. That is not a generous proposal it is mean spirited. So as far as we are concerned it's not enough. And we're not going to change our minds about that just because your business community gets nervous.
It's totally irrelevant too what you think has been dealt with. You don't run this show.
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No it doesn't. Our proposal boils down to honouring under British law all acquired rights from the moment that we leave.
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
We give fuck all for your British laws and you are not offering recognition of all acquired rights. So, no deal.
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After we leave British laws are all that will apply within the UK so I couldn't care less if you give a fuck or not, that is what there will be. Which specific acquired rights are we not offering?
The right to move freely between the UK and EU regardless of duration of absence from either. The right to bring over dependents. The rights as set out in directive 883/2004. And that is just for starters. Anything less than that is not acceptable and will lead to you crashing out and overnight cut out of the EU, the single market and the customs union. Hard borders in Northern Ireland will be the least of your problems .
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Except your side aren't proposing that. They're not proposing indefinite free movement (for those who've already taken advantage of it) between the UK and the EU. They're proposing that eg a Brit in France should have movement between France and the UK, not the UK and the EU. Which you were defending previously so neither your side nor you yourself actually care about 883/2004. The phrase "have your cake and eat it" springs to mind.
And yet another lie. What you describe is the logical effect of accepting your proposal, not what is in the position paper.
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Funny, now the crazy in charge in London thinks she can get the Germans and French to value the UK over the EU itself
You can't make this nonsense up.
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Doesn't it bother you Randy that your government is telling the British public that progress is being made in the Brexit talks where the real situation is complete deadlock? At what point do you think they have gone too far with their lies?
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No it doesn't in the slightest.
Barnier is upset we aren't simply agreeing to pay a large sum to the EU. Oh diddums we don't owe one. No deal without a payment cuts both ways there will be no payment without a deal either. When you guys want to be serious we are there ready.
The British government should continue doing what it is. Clever developments on trade etc while Barnier stonewalls. Once time is running out the only option on the table will be our one we have developed.
Wait, what "clever developments"?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Basically, they getting all the advantages of EU membership and we getting a promise they won't use that to shaft us. Which we will have to take their word for, because they can't accept any oversight.
Randy doesn't understand that for us actually no deal is better than a bad deal. Just like he doesn't understand that Brexit actually means Brexit.
But you have to admire the ability for self-delusion; thinking there is progress in negotiations when your opposite party talks about deadlock.
Last edited by Hazir; 08-31-2017 at 06:40 PM.
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And you know that nobody owes you anything as of the moment you leave the EU? You really want to try that game of 'not owing anything' Randy, because it's a game we can do too. With the difference that our stick is big enough to wipe out the engine of your economy.
If your government thinks it can continue playing this solely to humor its most rabid fringe, get ready for a time which will make you think back of 'project fear' as if it was the optimistic scenario. Nobody is talking yet of punishing you, but that doesn't mean we can't do it and won't do it if you do more harm to us than you have already done.
Congratulations America
*yawn*
You guys already are not offering us anything.
You want to be paid for a cake before we even talk about baking it let alone eating it. When you're ready to talk, we are too but there is no legal basis for this so-called divorce bill so the next step is making a deal and a deal needs two sides not just one. When you're ready to talk about a deal, we are too. There is nothing rabid about not writing a blank cheque based on someone else being greedy.
You were so used to taking advantage of our munificence that there will be a gaping black hole in your finances caused by our departure. You want us to agree with no deal in return to fill in that black hole to remove a headache from your side. That is not going to happen. If you have something worth it to us then we can talk about money but until then there's nothing more to talk about. Try giving a reason why we should be generous in giving you money for nothing in return?
And you are so used to being part of the EU that you don't understand that all it takes for us to take out London is do nothing at all. We will have a budgetary problem, you will have a financial and legal sector that will be tossed out of a big part of its markets. You even understand what it means if the basis for enforcing British judicial in the EU rulings blinks out of existance at the moment of your departure? That you reduce every contract based in British law to just another piece of paper in Europe? That patents held by British companies may lapse all at once? Are you really too dumb to understand that the status quo post-Brexit is not the same as the situation you have today?
Nothing of what your Leave campaign was true; absolutely nothing. There will be no easy transition from being inside the EU to being outside the EU where everything stays the same and you magically have 'taken back control'. The only way you can avoid disruption is by becoming a province of the EU. Ruled from Brussels in a way no EU member would have to suffer.
Last edited by Hazir; 09-01-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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So the EU is in your eyes Hotel California?
In Hotel analogies, you can check out and leave, but it's not smart in any way to do so out of a 20th floor window because you want to avoid tipping.
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If you've ordered up a large meal to your room and then decide you want to check out early you're probably going to have to pay some part of the remainder of the cost. Many hotels have a cancelation policy that requires you to pay some of the cost on the event of a late cancelation.
Regardless, this isn't a helpful analogy.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Aimless it's not a hotel analogy it is a song reference (Hazir got it). The Eagles Hotel California has the famous line "you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."
However if you want to run with the analogy then I agree there might be early exit policies if we were exiting early. We're not. We've already quite rightly said we will pay all our bills upto and including our checkout date. We're not going to check out early, we've given two years notice of our intention to checkout - the "hotels" T's and C's had a requirement for two years notice. What happens after those two years is not upto us but what we agree to most certainly is. If the hotel wants any further payments after we've checked out then it will need to offer us something in return. Quite happy to use the hotel bar and restaurant and pay for the use of the gym facilities etc but if we're denied access to those we won't be obliged to or have any reason to pay another penny.
I'm sorry but do you honestly believe there's a single English speaking person on the internet that doesn't recognize the song reference? I was responding to Hazir's post where he developed it into an analogy.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Randy, nobody cares about legal. What we are talking about is that you destroyed all goodwill. And goodwill is what you need if you want to seduce us into making arrangements for after Brexit. We have no legal or moral obligations to make any deal with you. In the absence of a deal you are cut loose of your markets in Europe, not only your manufacturing, but also your financial and services sector. Unlike what you seem to think there is no status quo that will stay in place without a deal. No deal is NO deals at all and doing business for your manufacturing sector will become difficult and bureaucratic, for your financial and services sector impossible. Even travel will become an issue for you, not just to Europe but also to places like the USA.
So, you can call it whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is that you have virtually no leverage at all in these negotiations. For the simple reason that we know that if you cut yourselfs loose from us, you're the ones who go over the cliff, while we're the ones who get stuck with a worthless piece of rope we need to replace. The latter is indefinetely much easier done than surviving the fall you're inflicting upon yourselves.
So, goodwill, political goodwill is what you desperately need to build. And that means 'paying up', more or less what we want. After which you will be allowed to sign a deal on our conditions. And the fun thing about that deal is that you will be able to claim that you got what you wanted 'free trade without the political shit' and I will be able to point out that this is a much lesser deal than you had, because you demoted yourself from a sovereign country into a rule taker.
Congratulations America
Aimless: No I didn't think there'd be anyone who doesn't recognise the reference (unless they were much younger than us perhaps) so I was surprised you didn't seem to get the reference, I never expected to have to explain it. Makes more sense that you were continuing on but that wasn't clear from the post, glad that's cleared up.
Hazir: "Nobody cares about legal" - Oh really? If the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure you bloody well would. Your position now makes even less sense than it did before when you were claiming the law was on your side. If you care about legalities then we can address the issue first and come to a legalistic number (but expect an answer very close to if not 0) and move on. If you don't care about legalities it becomes about negotiations in which case start negotiating! Absolutely it probably does make sense for us to pay up to get a good deal, we're wealthy and can afford to. But that only comes about through negotiations and will be in exchange for the aforementioned deal so you need to start talking about what's on offer for our payment.
Lets be real there is no real chance of getting to 2019 and saying that Brits can't fly. Not only is that unprecedented on a global scale what impact do you think that would have on the economies of nations like Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal, Cyprus etc that get our tourist money? Its a lesser destination and you're a wealthier nation but how much do you think we spend in Amsterdam each year? It's not in your interests that everyone holidays at the Lake District.
Goodwill doesn't exist on either side. If we had goodwill left we wouldn't be leaving. We've been burnt too many times before like when Blair gave away a large chunk of our rebate for "goodwill" and a promise to reform the CAP - which came to nothing but the rebate getting reduced and the CAP not being touched. If you think we'll pay up for a deal you're right, if you think we'll pay up for a vague promise that we might get a deal you've got another thing coming.
If you want money then we can talk. The more you offer us a deal to our liking the more you can extort from us. Asking for a cheque in advance of talks though is a road to nowhere.
Looking into it, it appears that British tourists are the second largest number to visit the Netherlands annually with over 1.9 million tourists (behind only Germany) spending over a billion euros per annum in the Netherlands. And you're not even our major destination, the poorer sunny nations would be hurt even worse.
Yeah it would be completely in your interests to see Brits grounded wouldn't it. Get real you're delusional.
Hope is the denial of reality
Randy, in international politics legality is the last resort of the weak. But yes, you are right we would also use that against you if necessary. You still don't get it do you? Even though it's happening right in front of your eyes you can't see the deminished state you have opted for. Your entire government is in no uncertain terms told that their ideas of a global Britain aren't going to fly but you still believe in it like a jihad believes in the Caliphate.
I can also tell you that nobody in Europe will cry over a bit less British tourism, especially not now that Germans have started shunning Turkey.
AS for planes not flying : there is more to flying than just gassing up the machine. Without agreements your only fall back right is the right to fly over Europe but no rights to land there. And with the tabula rasa extremism you egg on, there will be no deals the day after Brexit. And don't think Lufthansa and AF-KLM won't love to destroy BA 's position in transatlantic connections between EU and US.
Congratulations America
No I don't believe it because it is not happening in front of my eyes and the ludicrous nonsense you're proposing is unbelievable. As in I simply don't believe it. What is the list of nations denied landing rights that you are proposing we join? It is simply absurd.
The idea that nobody would cry over a bit less British tourism is beyond parody. Nearly 18 million British tourists visit Spain annually making us by a long shot their biggest tourism export. Barely 11 million Germans go there annually. That you think Spain could take the hit of losing 18 million visitors per annum because the Germans aren't going to Turkey just shows you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. Incidentally our visitors to Spain etc have gone up due to the Turkish issues too.
That you're once again banging the drum about destroying things just shows you to be the petty, small minded vandal that should not be taken seriously. The grown ups can have a more mature discussion.
No Randy, you voted for this, not I. And you are the only one who cheers on your government as it makes a bad situation absolutely horrible. I'm merely pointing out what are the effects of your bad choices. For which you keep demanding solutions from us.
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You voted for this indirectly by setting the EU down the path so considerably of ignoring what we (and to a lesser extent other votes across Europe) wanted. Remind me when the voters of the Netherlands ratified the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty.
In which fantasy world of yours did you not have veto powers over that treaty?
Not to mention that you guys put your own special "have my cake and eat it" clauses into that one as well. So, yeah, we totally forced that one down your throat.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I voted for a party that at the 2005 General Election promised a referendum on the forthcoming Treaty in its manifesto. As did over 90% of British voters.
After you remind me of the outcome of the Dutch and French referendums, you could try and remind me of the outcome of the UK referendum.
We had no "have my cake and eat it" clauses in that one either.
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