Page 4 of 206 FirstFirst ... 234561454104 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 6159

Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #91
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Nope. In fact, that was Loki's reaction even to the idea that Bush Jr. might withdraw the signature from the Kyoto Treaty, something which Clinton had never even bothered to submit to Congress because the Senate had made it clear they would reject the treaty by 98-0. It's quite amazing, really, the number of actions states undertake which Loki declared were flatly impossible because no one would ever trust that state again.
    The status of the USA as a dependable high contracting party was damaged though by Kyoto. Not because it didn't ratify Kyoto, but because it never had an intention to make steps for ratification. It's the difference between not being able to ratify according to your own constitutional rules (which is a legitimate reason to withhold ratification) and having no intention to ratify to start with (which basically makes you a cheat).

    Now, nobody will forget that the US is the pre-eminent power in the world. But the fact that Kyoto still hasn't been forgotten also tells us something about the extent to which other high contracting parties trust the US.
    Congratulations America

  2. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Nope. In fact, that was Loki's reaction even to the idea that Bush Jr. might withdraw the signature from the Kyoto Treaty, something which Clinton had never even bothered to submit to Congress because the Senate had made it clear they would reject the treaty by 98-0. It's quite amazing, really, the number of actions states undertake which Loki declared were flatly impossible because no one would ever trust that state again. He has a very bad habit of conflating whether a state action is feasible with whether he considers it a good idea based on his personal political interests and desires.
    Yet oddly enough the US has signed many deals since Kyoto. Funny that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It is pro-Spanish, because it will give Spain powers over Gibraltar's future it didn't have before. It was not in Spain's powers to remove Gibraltar from an agreement between the EU and the UK, not it is. Talk about a new Falklands is ridiculous of course; what this will amount to is Spain having full control over what happens to Gibraltars land borders once more.
    Spain has veto powers over a new deal, of course it had that power. So be it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #93
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yet oddly enough the US has signed many deals since Kyoto. Funny that.

    Spain has veto powers over a new deal, of course it had that power. So be it.
    Actually, Spain had no such power. We are about to hand it to them.
    Congratulations America

  4. #94
    You've repeatedly pointed out that a new deal would need to be agreed unanimously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Nope. In fact, that was Loki's reaction even to the idea that Bush Jr. might withdraw the signature from the Kyoto Treaty, something which Clinton had never even bothered to submit to Congress because the Senate had made it clear they would reject the treaty by 98-0. It's quite amazing, really, the number of actions states undertake which Loki declared were flatly impossible because no one would ever trust that state again. He has a very bad habit of conflating whether a state action is feasible with whether he considers it a good idea based on his personal political interests and desires.
    The idea that Loki 2017 even remembers what Loki ~2001 said about Kyoto is ludicrous. I guess I should be impressed that you do though.

    I don't think neither IL nor treaties are sacred. Countries can and do ignore both. But there's a cost to ignoring IL, and there's an even bigger cost to outright saying that you have no intention of following a treaty the second it leads to any outcome you dislike (which is very different to saying that you really, really don't like a specific treaty).

    On an unrelated note, this is generally a credible source:

    Last edited by Loki; 04-02-2017 at 10:35 PM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #96
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You've repeatedly pointed out that a new deal would need to be agreed unanimously.
    You are right. I made a mistake.
    Congratulations America

  7. #97
    So we have gone from what was a requirement to unanimity in your eyes, to a requirement for QMV plus Spain in your eyes now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #98
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    I just wrote that I made a mistake. Why would you turn admission of making a mistake into repeating the original mistake?
    Also : you lot are really moving fast from 'we're still in Europe' to 'our navy still can kick their Spanish asses'. One has to wonder why we should even bother to talk at all.
    Congratulations America

  9. #99
    I was just trying to clarify if I understood your thinking correctly. Kudos for acknowledging a mistake, no disrespect intended for that.

    Carrot and stick is fairly standard. We could kick Spanish ass if it became necessary but it won't become necessary. You guys brought the subject up though not us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #100
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I was just trying to clarify if I understood your thinking correctly. Kudos for acknowledging a mistake, no disrespect intended for that.

    Carrot and stick is fairly standard. We could kick Spanish ass if it became necessary but it won't become necessary. You guys brought the subject up though not us.
    We never brought up either the sovereignty over Gibraltar or the military conquest of the territory. We made the inclusion of Gibraltar in any trade deal with the UK subject to consent of the Spanish government. Which at the most will result in adressing the special concerns of EU member Spain in said agreement.

    How many examples do you have of countries asking for negotiations on trade deals that - even before those talks themselves have been agreed - start with threaths of military violence? I know only one.
    Last edited by Hazir; 04-03-2017 at 05:19 PM.
    Congratulations America

  11. #101
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    One thing that keeps puzzling me about this whole Brexit thing is that I don't understand how British politicians talk about recognizing the UK can't force through it's objectives against the EU as 'breaking promises' by Theresa May.
    Congratulations America

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Nope. In fact, that was Loki's reaction even to the idea that Bush Jr. might withdraw the signature from the Kyoto Treaty, something which Clinton had never even bothered to submit to Congress because the Senate had made it clear they would reject the treaty by 98-0. It's quite amazing, really, the number of actions states undertake which Loki declared were flatly impossible because no one would ever trust that state again. He has a very bad habit of conflating whether a state action is feasible with whether he considers it a good idea based on his personal political interests and desires.
    Irrelevant to the content of your post. Asserting that lying is wrong isn't the same as saying that lying is impossible. Saying that it's wrong or dangerous to renege on a deal isn't the same as saying that it's impossible. Recognizing that it's illegal, wrong and dangerous to break the law isn't the same as saying that breaking the law is impossible. And so on. If the point you're actually trying to make is that Loki's critical views on violations of treaties and other forms of international law are wrong or exaggerated then that's another--and more complex--matter that may be interesting to examine from different angles. Certainly more interesting than third-rate snark.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    One thing that keeps puzzling me about this whole Brexit thing is that I don't understand how British politicians talk about recognizing the UK can't force through it's objectives against the EU as 'breaking promises' by Theresa May.
    It's a legitimate view either promises were made or perceived to have been made. It doesn't matter if the promises themselves were not on the up and up
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Irrelevant to the content of your post. Asserting that lying is wrong isn't the same as saying that lying is impossible. Saying that it's wrong or dangerous to renege on a deal isn't the same as saying that it's impossible. Recognizing that it's illegal, wrong and dangerous to break the law isn't the same as saying that breaking the law is impossible. And so on. If the point you're actually trying to make is that Loki's critical views on violations of treaties and other forms of international law are wrong or exaggerated then that's another--and more complex--matter that may be interesting to examine from different angles. Certainly more interesting than third-rate snark.
    Except that Loki keeps saying things are impossible or illegal when they are at worse only inadvisable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    One thing that keeps puzzling me about this whole Brexit thing is that I don't understand how British politicians talk about recognizing the UK can't force through it's objectives against the EU as 'breaking promises' by Theresa May.
    I don't quite understand this sentence or where you're going with it. May has widely avoided making promises and is getting criticised mostly for being so circumspect. Though o think trying to avoid laying hostages to fortune is a good idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Except that Loki keeps saying things are impossible or illegal when they are at worse only inadvisable.
    Loki never said impossible. And breaking a treaty is illegal...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Irrelevant to the content of your post. Asserting that lying is wrong isn't the same as saying that lying is impossible. Saying that it's wrong or dangerous to renege on a deal isn't the same as saying that it's impossible.
    He didn't say it was wrong or dangerous (though that was why he was objecting) he was saying it couldn't be done.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  18. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    He didn't say it was wrong or dangerous (though that was why he was objecting) he was saying it couldn't be done.
    Are we still stuck in 2003 or did Loki really say that Brexit was impossible? As you know, I have a very poor memory, but the only claims of impossibility from the Brexit that I can recall off the top of my head had to do with the notion that the UK could negotiate full access to the single market while restricting freedom of movement simply due to being so much more awesome than Norway and Switzerland. More or less.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Loki never said impossible. And breaking a treaty is illegal...
    Triggering an exit clause within a treaty is not illegal, refusing to ratify a treaty is not illegal ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    We never brought up either the sovereignty over Gibraltar or the military conquest of the territory. We made the inclusion of Gibraltar in any trade deal with the UK subject to consent of the Spanish government. Which at the most will result in adressing the special concerns of EU member Spain in said agreement.

    How many examples do you have of countries asking for negotiations on trade deals that - even before those talks themselves have been agreed - start with threaths of military violence? I know only one.
    We haven't threatened military violence, we didn't even bring up Gibraltar or violence in our letter other than to stress the importance of a deal of co-operation for security. Some people not in government have said things along the lines of if Spain invaded Gibraltar then we would go to war to defend it like in the Falklands but that shouldn't be a shock and I don't see why its relevant. Of course we would.

    I do think though that in relation to seeking an agreement on security co-operation etc that it should now that it's been brought up be conditional on agreement being reached that covers Gibraltar. The UK has a SIGINT network second to none in Europe and Gibraltar plays a key part on that. If you're not willing to be friends and play nicely with Gibraltar then I don't see why we should share our intelligence that Gibraltar helps develop. It'd be like trying to seek a security deal with America while simultaneously saying you desire to impoverish Langley, Virginia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Triggering an exit clause within a treaty is not illegal, refusing to ratify a treaty is not illegal ...
    The question of course is whether or not it's illegal to violate a treaty and, more importantly, whether or not you care.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #112
    I care. I have never proposed violating treaties, I have proposed we have the right to terminate treaties which is a completely different thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Triggering an exit clause within a treaty is not illegal, refusing to ratify a treaty is not illegal ...
    Is killing leprechauns not illegal, too? That's an immense set of strawmen you're attacking. Is that your new tactic when cornered?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #114
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,238
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post


    http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does...-of-ministers/



    Apologise at your leisure. You can cherry pick as many individual months as you want but if we had.the same figures as the French for instance things might be different.

    As for Treaties, Treaties should not be used as a routine form of legislation and for special circumstances only. Luckily this Treaty provided an exit clause and we are using it.
    Oh, please. 12%? Are you serious? THAT is what you're complaining about? 12 fucking percent? Cry me a river you baby.

    Oh, yes, 12% is pretty fucking regular. Jesus. That's the kind of attitude which makes a lot of people glad you're out and that you'll crash and burn with this moronic attitude of yours. Seriously, absolutely NO ONE is waiting for you guys. Your only "industry" of note is your finance sector and with you wanting out, you're doing a bang job of demolishing that too.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  25. #115
    It's been brought up before. Most of that can be ascribed primarily to the ascension of UKIP and, to a lesser extent, the decision of some parties to leave the groups to which they'd belonged for a long time.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Oh, please. 12%? Are you serious? THAT is what you're complaining about? 12 fucking percent? Cry me a river you baby.

    Oh, yes, 12% is pretty fucking regular. Jesus. That's the kind of attitude which makes a lot of people glad you're out and that you'll crash and burn with this moronic attitude of yours. Seriously, absolutely NO ONE is waiting for you guys. Your only "industry" of note is your finance sector and with you wanting out, you're doing a bang job of demolishing that too.
    If I'm reading those charts right, and the UK in 2009-2015 was being outvoted in twice the number of instances as the next highest country, it would seem to be fairly reasonable to claim that they were regularly being outvoted. Certainly they were the most regularly outvoted of the nations. How much of that is semantic niggling on what regularly means is an open question, but your claims to have "proven" Randblade wrong, and caught him in a "lie" are almost certainly over played, if not outright lies themselves.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 04-05-2017 at 09:55 PM.

  27. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Oh, please. 12%? Are you serious? THAT is what you're complaining about? 12 fucking percent? Cry me a river you baby.

    Oh, yes, 12% is pretty fucking regular. Jesus. That's the kind of attitude which makes a lot of people glad you're out and that you'll crash and burn with this moronic attitude of yours. Seriously, absolutely NO ONE is waiting for you guys. Your only "industry" of note is your finance sector and with you wanting out, you're doing a bang job of demolishing that too.
    Considering most votes are formalities that are readily agreeable (as Hazir mentioned on page 2) and it is rare for any nation to be outvoted . . . yes I find 12% to be quite high.

    As for your claim that 12% is "pretty fucking regular" I'm wondering how you can possibly define that given that only the UK is at 12%. Germany at second-highest doesn't even reach 6% so how can more than double the next highest be "pretty fucking regular"? I'd consider regular not to be next-worse though but the median - and the median is less than 2%. We are over 6 times the median average so how is that "pretty fucking regular"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's been brought up before. Most of that can be ascribed primarily to the ascension of UKIP and, to a lesser extent, the decision of some parties to leave the groups to which they'd belonged for a long time.
    None of this can be be ascribed to that (this chart was for the Council of Ministers, not the European Parliament which we've discussed previously). Either way though who we choose to elect is up to us and I expect my government to do what we elect it to do, even when my party loses the election.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #118
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    The figure of 12% is somewhat misleading though, because it merely means 12% of those cases in which there actually was a vote. Set against the total of decisions taken the number could be significantly lower.
    Congratulations America

  29. #119
    I fail to see how that's relevant to the issue at hand. It is only contentious issues that are debatable. Plus the 12% could be lower because a year of that was under Gordon Brown, I'd be curious to see the figure since May 2010.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #120
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    If you take a thousand decisions and have a vote on a mere hundred, then loose 12% of the votes then you actually lost in 1,2% of the decisions.
    Congratulations America

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •