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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #1201
    Either that or the EU negotiators tried to bounce the UK into accepting a deal by leaking it as done before it was agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #1202
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Either that or the EU negotiators tried to bounce the UK into accepting a deal by leaking it as done before it was agreed.
    Yes some people have floated this suggestion, not really being taken seriously.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #1203
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    Well, the obvious solution is for all of the UK leaving on the same terms.
    Congratulations America

  4. #1204
    Of course all of the UK should leave on the same terms and we should move onto phase 2 to negotiate what those terms are. If Ireland's not happy at the end of the negotiations they can veto it then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #1205
    Nah that's all right I expect they're happy with being able to veto it before then.

    Incidentally, Tusk revealed that there's a draft proposal for the guidelines for phase 2 negotiations. I expect the UK is as poorly prepared as it was for phase 1.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Of course all of the UK should leave on the same terms and we should move onto phase 2 to negotiate what those terms are. If Ireland's not happy at the end of the negotiations they can veto it then.
    Dream on buddy. If the Irish aren't satisfied, you don't get to talk about trade deals.
    Congratulations America

  7. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Nah that's all right I expect they're happy with being able to veto it before then.

    Incidentally, Tusk revealed that there's a draft proposal for the guidelines for phase 2 negotiations. I expect the UK is as poorly prepared as it was for phase 1.
    Isn't it a bit much already to use the word prepared in relation to how they went into these talks (I decided negotiations is a bit of a misnomer for what's happening) ?

    Talking about words; I think we will soon be able to re-purpose the word 'remoaner'; we can re-brand it to mean 'Breximaniac moaning about Brexit not happening''. This would save us from Bremoaner.
    Last edited by Hazir; 12-05-2017 at 10:39 AM.
    Congratulations America

  8. #1208
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Nah that's all right I expect they're happy with being able to veto it before then.
    Which achieves what precisely? If there's no deal because we don't move onto trade talks then the Irish get a hard border automatically. Is that what they want?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #1209
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Which achieves what precisely? If there's no deal because we don't move onto trade talks then the Irish get a hard border automatically. Is that what they want?
    If they use their veto, they get a hard border and the UK is punished. If they don't use their veto, they still get a hard border, but the UK is rewarded. Threatening a veto in phase 1 increases Ireland's chances of getting a solution that avoids a hard border. It also slightly increases the likelihood of Brexit not even happening



    In other news, many conservative MPs, ministers & commentators seem to be a little thick. They keep bringing up the Sweden-Norway border as an example of why the Irish border is a non-issue. It's as if they have literally no idea what Norway's relationship is with the EU.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #1210
    Norway's not in the customs union and many Remainiacs keep insisting we must be in the customs union to avoid a hard border.

    If they don't use their veto they don't get a hard border. They say they don't want a hard border, we say we don't want a hard border, so we all agree we don't want a hard border. Nobody is seeking a hard border if they don't use their veto but it is more likely the later trade talks happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Norway's not in the customs union and many Remainiacs keep insisting we must be in the customs union to avoid a hard border.
    1. Norway is in the EEA, with all that entails. The UK's govt. & a large number of Brexiters with their heads up their asses have indicated that they will pursue a course of action that precludes EEA membership.

    2. The Sweden-Norway border is not frictionless. There are customs checks (something like 600/day on average last year) as well as electronic surveillance (which the UK has said it does not want to implement), and country-of-origin rules are enforced.

    If they don't use their veto they don't get a hard border. They say they don't want a hard border, we say we don't want a hard border, so we all agree we don't want a hard border. Nobody is seeking a hard border if they don't use their veto but it is more likely the later trade talks happen.
    If you're committed to maintaining red lines that make it impossible to avoid a hard border, there will be a hard border. If you indicate that you want to become the new Norway, sure, that might avoid a hard border. But you should indicate that now.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #1212
    *shakes head in disappointment*

    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  13. #1213
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    Dear Randy, get this into your thick skull: it is irrelevant what deal we are giving others. You are going to get the deal we want to give you. Your role in this is by and large to take dictation.
    Congratulations America

  14. #1214
    Well, this is turning into the dumbest Brexit in history.

    For fucks sake.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  15. #1215
    Rand, is this what you meant by reclaiming control?

    Another dimension is unfolding that is driving further disquiet: the allegedly systematic clearance of homeless EU nationals from British streets. The numbers affected are unclear – despite FoI requests, the Home Office refuses to publish updated numbers – but Clarke believes the amount of Europeans targeted under this policy may roll into the thousands. A high court judge will rule next month whether the policy is lawful. Gwozdzinski and Malicki were both homeless when detained. More are being swept up all the time.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...etention-death
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #1216
    We haven't Brexited yet Loki. That's got the square root of nothing to do with Brexit. Though I don't see why we shouldn't be dealing with the homeless on the streets, especially as the forecast is that a sharp cold winter is coming it isn't good to have anyone on the streets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #1217
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    1. Norway is in the EEA, with all that entails. The UK's govt. & a large number of Brexiters with their heads up their asses have indicated that they will pursue a course of action that precludes EEA membership.
    Although I couldn't care less about immigration, a large reason why people voted was to end Freedom of Movement. After the vote there were shrieks across Europe about how there couldn't be an "a la carte Europe" and that the "4 freedoms" were indivisible so that it isn't possible to be in the EEA and end Freedom of Movement. So May having decided to respect the desire of the country to end Freedom of Movement responded to Europeans saying that wasn't possible in the EEA to say early on "OK no EEA then".

    Now you're moaning that she's ruled out the EEA. There's a very simple solution if you want us to stay in the EEA, address the reasons why we've said we're leaving.

    For the record I'd be perfectly happy with the EEA. It gets us out of the customs union which was my bigger problem and the EEA's customs arrangements are far better than the EU's are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #1218
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854

    The government has not carried out an impact assessment of leaving the EU on the UK economy, Brexit Secretary David Davis has told MPs
    What a fucking joke.


  19. #1219
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854



    What a fucking joke.

    Well, besides the fact that a Brexiteer told a blatant lie again (which isn't exactly news worthy) it turns out he was right claiming that publishing the fact would have weakened the British position in negotiations.
    Congratulations America

  20. #1220
    If (when) Brexit goes horribly wrong I won't even be able to fairly say that it was inevitable because Brexit is just an inherently bad idea, because they're making such an incredible mess of the process.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  21. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well, besides the fact that a Brexiteer told a blatant lie again (which isn't exactly news worthy) it turns out he was right claiming that publishing the fact would have weakened the British position in negotiations.
    That boat sailed long ago. The only thing this signals now is that everyone else should consider Britain to be in the worst possible position and to take full advantage of that fact.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  22. #1222
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Now you're moaning that she's ruled out the EEA. There's a very simple solution if you want us to stay in the EEA, address the reasons why we've said we're leaving.
    There are several "simple" solutions. For example, you can revoke Brexit, or face up to British xenophobia and abandon your position on FoM.

    I'm not "moaning" about the govt. ruling out the EEA, I'm trying to explain to you why these Brexiters are full of shit. I explained to you several times both before and after the election that your fantasies--and Brexiters' lies--about future EEA membership would not be realized so long as the UK opposed FoM and that my belief was that the UK was unlikely to change its mind about that. Nor would I want the EU to make an exception for the UK. For these reasons, it's stupid to point to the Sweden-Norway border as an argument for why the RoI-NI border is a non-issue.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #1223
    So your "simple" solutions are to undermine democracy, or to undermine democracy? Marvellous.

    How about something that respects democracy? An alien concept I'm sure given the history the EU has with Ireland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So your "simple" solutions are to undermine democracy, or to undermine democracy? Marvellous.
    There is no clear democratic mandate for a no-deal hard Brexit. Throughout the campaign, voters were given a number of more-or-less clear assurances about the post-Brexit relationship. If you want to uphold the principles of democracy, you should let the public vote on the options that are actually on offer.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #1225
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Riiight. Because your own country has such a great track record with democracy. Isn't it fabulous that your government can simply ignore anything Scotland says even if their laws have direct effects on Scotland?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  26. #1226
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    There is no clear democratic mandate for a no-deal hard Brexit. Throughout the campaign, voters were given a number of more-or-less clear assurances about the post-Brexit relationship. If you want to uphold the principles of democracy, you should let the public vote on the options that are actually on offer.
    And one of those options is: "Hell if we know what will actually happen!" as they've just admitted.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  27. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    There is no clear democratic mandate for a no-deal hard Brexit. Throughout the campaign, voters were given a number of more-or-less clear assurances about the post-Brexit relationship. If you want to uphold the principles of democracy, you should let the public vote on the options that are actually on offer.
    Both sides of the debate were abundantly clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market. The government said so, the Remain campaign said so, the Leave campaign said so.

    There is no clear mandate to not agree a Free Trade Agreement but the Single Market was ruled out by everbody if we left the EU before the vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Riiight. Because your own country has such a great track record with democracy. Isn't it fabulous that your government can simply ignore anything Scotland says even if their laws have direct effects on Scotland?
    Nah, we gave the Scots a choice in determining their future and they chose to remain within the UK and everything that means. We respected the Scots decision. Unlike the Catalans who are being denied a voice or the Irish who have twice been told they voted wrong by the EU and made to come back with the right answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Both sides of the debate were abundantly clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market. The government said so, the Remain campaign said so, the Leave campaign said so.

    There is no clear mandate to not agree a Free Trade Agreement but the Single Market was ruled out by everbody if we left the EU before the vote.
    This is inaccurate. Prominent Brexiters refuted claims from Remain that leaving the EU would entail leaving the single market. This ranged from direct disavowals (of course you're not leaving, no-one's saying you're leaving etc) to indirect promises (focus on models for a future relationship that include considerable access to Single Market eg. Norway model, Swiss model).
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #1229
    Bollocks. You are either lying or have been misled as that did not happen during the referendum campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #1230
    Someone's lying.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Johnson
    British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...rope--and-alw/

    Also, from the 'geopolitical impact' thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Many many experts backed Brexit. Many did not. Those that did not made assumptions based on the UK both losing access to the Single Market and the UK signing no new trade agreements. I view those assumptions as both fundamentally unsound.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

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