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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #1261
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    So, you'll agree to free movement?
    That's included in Free Trade Agreements like CETA?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #1262
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes and to seek an amended new one.
    Bwahaha! And you seriously think you get to dictate the amendments...
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  3. #1263
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's included in Free Trade Agreements like CETA?
    Well, without it you won't get to do Copy'n'Paste.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  4. #1264
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Bwahaha! And you seriously think you get to dictate the amendments...
    Did I say that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #1265
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Well, without it you won't get to do Copy'n'Paste.
    You copy and paste the relevant segments that don't need amending, not the entire damned thing.

    If you were going to copy and paste the entire damned thing then what would be the point? Oh and some of what will likely be getting copied over will be text from deals like CETA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #1266
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Did I say that?
    Well... let me put it this way, Bozo: You can suggest stuff all you want. But if you burn bridges then don't expect us to welcome you with open arms. You realize that while Ireland holds veto powers now, they'll also hold veto powers on subsequent trade agreements? And that's only one country. Plus, Switzerland and Norway will make damn sure that you don't get a better deal than them.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #1267
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You copy and paste the relevant segments that don't need amending, not the entire damned thing.
    You're deluded. You don't even understand that it's not actually about the text but about our member states agreeing to what's in that text. I myself could probably pump out a text inside, what, a week? A month, tops.

    Doesn't mean anything in the slightest.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  8. #1268
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Well... let me put it this way, Bozo: You can suggest stuff all you want. But if you burn bridges then don't expect us to welcome you with open arms. You realize that while Ireland holds veto powers now, they'll also hold veto powers on subsequent trade agreements? And that's only one country. Plus, Switzerland and Norway will make damn sure that you don't get a better deal than them.
    No shit Sherlock. Have I ever said otherwise. You can be offensive about all the straw men that you want but you forget yourself that while a deal is in our interests, it is also in Ireland's interest. It is also in your interest.

    Enlightened self-interest should ensure a deal can be reached. You could see in the body language of both parties on Monday that while a deal wasn't reached yet both sides were disappointed and want to move on, they both want a deal.

    Your nonchalance is false bravado that the real grown ups don't have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #1269
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    And yet you have no clue as to how deal making actually works.

    If it is so easy why don't we have an agreement yet?

    Hint: It's not typing down the text which is the problem.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  10. #1270
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    We haven't got an agreement yet because we haven't reached the deadline yet. Compromises always happen at five minutes to midnight or later.

    The fact is that actually you can see now both parties working on getting an agreement. I'll be amazed if "sufficient progress" isn't agreed this month.

    The outlines of an agreement are there already on this first stage
    Cash: The UK will of course honour her obligations, spread over as they come due in the decades to come rather than in one lump sum.
    Citizens rights: Will be reciprocated and honoured.
    Ireland: Already in fact agreed for what is preferred, what is being disputed currently is the language on "Scenario C" (is the fallback if the best and second-best case scenarios don't transpire). Expect something about "regulatory equivalence" to be fudged for everyone to agree to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We haven't got an agreement yet because we haven't reached the deadline yet. Compromises always happen at five minutes to midnight or later.

    The fact is that actually you can see now both parties working on getting an agreement. I'll be amazed if "sufficient progress" isn't agreed this month.

    The outlines of an agreement are there already on this first stage
    Cash: The UK will of course honour her obligations, spread over as they come due in the decades to come rather than in one lump sum.
    Citizens rights: Will be reciprocated and honoured.
    Ireland: Already in fact agreed for what is preferred, what is being disputed currently is the language on "Scenario C" (is the fallback if the best and second-best case scenarios don't transpire). Expect something about "regulatory equivalence" to be fudged for everyone to agree to.
    Dear Randy, even if you wold copy and paste the entire body of EU Law into British law and made it a capital offense to even think about changing it unilaterally, on 23.01 of March 29, 2019 you would be in violation of so many laws that you'd still not have practical access to the single market.

    The acquis is not a panacea that brings into being all that is needed to live by it. For starters none of your British institutes would be recognized by any EU body for the simple reason that their equivalency can't legally be established before you are out.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  12. #1272
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Hence the transition.

    Jesus Christ you lack imagination. I feel sorry for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #1273
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Hence the transition.

    Jesus Christ you lack imagination. I feel sorry for you.
    Which transition? You lot still haven't been able to offer us something we like before we will talk about that.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  14. #1274
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Yes we have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #1275
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    On economic news manufacturing output has now increased for the last six months in a row.

    The last time that happened was in 1996-97:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/econo...ries/k27y/diop

    And the trade deficit for the first ten months of 2017 is £22bn, down from £35bn in the same period in 2016:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/natio...ries/ikbj/mret
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #1276
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    Well, now that you mention it; we usually like deals that mean you do as we say. And it seems like you are. So, good for you for finally understanding these talks aren't really negotiations.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  17. #1277
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Kind of like while we were EU members.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #1278
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Deal made, talks progressing to next stage: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42277040
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Kind of like while we were EU members.
    Not at all, it makes a huge difference if saying no means throwing yourself off the cliff or nothing changes. Also, the Council hasn't decided anything yet.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  20. #1280
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #1281
    So, erm, moving forward, apparently people born in the NI will still be able to apply for Irish passports and therefore get the benefits of EU membership that goes with.

    People born elsewhere in the UK won't.

    Great...

  22. #1282
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    People born in NI have always been able to apply for Irish passports, why should that change?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #1283
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    People born in NI have always been able to apply for Irish passports, why should that change?
    Please consider for just one minute the people throughout the UK who wanted to remain and continue to be angry and upset with what's going on.

    Have you done that? Mustered enough empathy? Can you manage that?

    Now you might just be able to grasp why for many people this feels just a little unfair.

  24. #1284
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Yes I have done. Also don't forget that I personally was in favour of EU citizenship, I loved the idea of being able to travel freely across Europe and I hope a sensible path is worked out to see that continue.

    But I don't see why this feels unfair. Ireland has had a special relationship with the UK that predates the EEC. It predates WWII. Those born in Ulster being able to get British and Irish citizenship is not new and is not related to Brexit. It is not related to today's deal. That's like complaining that the French still have EU citizenship rights. It's not "moving forward" its a change, it is simply the status quo continuing and why shouldn't it? Should we seek to deprive those born their of their birthright that has nothing to do with us?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #1285
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Yeah, you tell them! Take back control!

    (Which basically means: Roll over and cave in to pretty much all demands by the EU, leaving you in a worse position than you started out with - no say in regulations but the requirement to uphold them nonetheless)
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  26. #1286
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    We'll see. Of course Hazir had been telling me for 15 years prior to the referendum that outside the Eurozone Britain had no say in the regulations anyway. "Will be decided by the Eurozone and then implemented for all" was a phrase said countless times.

    This deal seems to be getting met with positive responses from the right kind of people and fury by the kind of people I wouldn't want to touch with a bargepole so that's good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #1287
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    We already told you that your opinion on who creates the regulations is hogwash and bristling with willful ignorance.

    You regularly stated that "you were overruled" or somesuch crap. I showed you proof that you're a moron, parroting some idiotic party line in that regard.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #1288
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No you didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #1289
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We haven't got an agreement yet because we haven't reached the deadline yet. Compromises always happen at five minutes to midnight or later.
    "Compromises"

    Cash: The UK will of course honour her obligations, spread over as they come due in the decades to come rather than in one lump sum.
    It's hilarious how we've gone from "go whistle" to "The UK will of course honour her obligations", when mere months ago there were apparently no obligations, only bargaining chips.

    Citizens rights: Will be reciprocated and honoured.
    Sadly, FoM for Brits living in Europe looks uncertain atm.

    Ireland: Already in fact agreed for what is preferred, what is being disputed currently is the language on "Scenario C" (is the fallback if the best and second-best case scenarios don't transpire). Expect something about "regulatory equivalence" to be fudged for everyone to agree to.
    There will be no fudging. None of the real stakeholders--EU and esp. RoI, NI, DUP--will put up with any fudging. May was counting on that strategy earlier, for the failed deal.

    I like the agreement. Essentially sets NI up for continued SM & CU participation similar to today's level, meaning the UK will either have to embrace maximum devolution and accept a sea border with Ireland, or continue its participation in SM & CU and see its entire trade policy constrained by the EU for the foreseeable future. If the UK grants autonomy on trade matters to NI, you can be sure Scotland and Wales will be interested in getting similar autonomy for themselves.

    To summarize phase 1, after resisting or trying to ignore reality every step of the way, the UK has finally come to terms with that reality. The govt. did British citizens a huge disservice with its persistent incompetence but, now that they've woken up, there's going to be a lot more certainty. The extreme scenarios--revocation of art 50, no deal Hard Brexit--are both much less likely. The long transition period gives businesses and ordinary citizens a lot more breathing room and hope. I'll be able to visit a few more times without any hassle and get my fill of musicals.

    So, all in all, a positive end to the week. However, the reputational damage suffered by the UK over the course of phase 1--and esp. in the past couple of weeks--can't be overstated. Being exposed as a sloppy, incompetent and, above all, untrustworthy negotiating partner is not good. But I expect things to be a little better for the next few months.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  30. #1290
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Also very glad to see progress on the deal with Japan:

    https://www.ft.com/content/b48e4f3a-...9-c64b1c09b482

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-j...-idUSKBN1E21BT

    Hope there'll be some meaningful progress in the negotiations with Mercosur.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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