No I don't, but then my understanding is that they are not comparable.Originally Posted by RandBlade
I understand that I can apply for dual-citizenship with another country IF, as you point out, that's available to you and you meet their criteria.
However under the GFA anyone simply born in NI can apply for an Irish passport and, therefore, obtain all the benefits of EU citizenship.
Therefore not everyone will be treated equally.
First of all, his attack on Hammond was ignorant. The payment is a part of the divorce agreement, it is to be paid irrespective of how the future trade relationship looks. Secondly, Davis shows that he has no intention of honoring obligations. If your intention to honor your existing obligations is contingent on a future event that you're currently actively trying to prevent, there is no real intention to honor existing obligations. The UK is reaffirming the view that it regards the settlement as a bargaining chip, which puts the lie to your claim that you were always going to honor your existing obligations.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The Republic of Ireland is another country and anyone born in Ireland meets their requirements and can claim Irish citizenship. That is no different to my German colleague and her children being able to maintain German citizenship.
My brother was born in Australia but is a British citizen. Do you object to that too?
Yes if he was trying to actively prevent a deal you'd have a point. He's not.
The deal made includes more than our obligations as it includes a payment for the transitionary period that hasn't yet been agreed.
I already answered that question. No I don't object to it.
I object to the fact that NI citizens can obtain EU citizenship significantly easier than English, Scottish or Welsh citizens. Specially, by being born in the right place and falling under the GFA.
If I want EU citizenship then I will need to apply for dual-citizenship with another EU country. There will be a whole raft of conditions I'll need to me in order do that. For example, the first condition of German citizenship is living in the country for at least 8 years. Do the Northern Irish need to live in Ireland for any amount of time? No.
If a Northern Irish person wants EU citizen, well, they get it granted to them under the GFA. The two are vastly different systems and I don't know why you're trying to compare them.
Somebody please tell me if I'm wrong. It happens often.
Because then he'd have to admit to being wrong.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Sure they do, by being born there. Because as per GFA, Northern Ireland IS part of Ireland in that respect.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
They don't have to live there for 8 years is what Gogo was saying.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
No he's denying the very basis of the Good Friday Agreement which is that the whole of Ireland is united as far as Irish citizenship is concerned.
It's like complaining that someone who happens to be born in America can claim citizenship.
If you're born in America you get American citizenship.
If you're born in Ireland you get Irish citizenship.
Northern Ireland is in Ireland as far as the Good Friday Agreement is concerned for that. Denying someone born there has lived there is to deny everything agreed in the peace process.
I'm not trying to deny them anything. I'm really happy for them.
This isn't about denying the Northern Irish their "birthright". It's about ensuring I get my "birthright" as well.
You do, you get your British citizenship.
This brings us back full circle to what I said. You're not really pissed off that the Irish retain EU citizenship. You're pissed off that you're losing yours. That's far more understandable than bemoaning the continuity of peace and sharing in Northern Ireland.
Finally you get it.
I was never bemoaning the "continuity of peace". It's irritating that you use phrases like that, implying that I did, because I never said such a thing.
I want equality throughout the UK. Do you?
I said it all along.
We have equality across the UK. Do you think the Republic of Ireland should be compelled to give out citizenship to you?
You have? When?
I thought your argument was that I get the same opportunities as the Northern Irish because I can apply for citizenship in other EU countries - but as I've pointed out, it's not comparable.
Unfortunately I just don't understand your position or what exactly you're objecting to about what I've said.
No. We should make it as easy for English, Scottish and Welsh citizens to secure EU citizenship as it is for the Northern Irish. Then people throughout the UK will be treated the same.
That still may happen, although given that it wasn't concluded in the first round of talks I'm not optimistic.
It is comparable. If another nation wants to give you citizenship they can do. Once we leave the EU then UK citizens will have no more or less right to apply for EU citizenship than anyone else. Everyone in the UK regardless of place of birth is if they are entitled to will be allowed to apply for our own citizenship. If another nation wants to offer you citizenship then we are a nation that allows dual nationality (some don't).
There's no reason to be optimistic it would be grossly unreasonable. EU citizenship does not exist in a vacuum it is tied to your nationality. Which nation do you think should be compelled to offer you citizenship? The Irish give citizenship to those born in Ireland, that is their choice. Do you expect them to be obliged to extend that to you?We should make it as easy for English, Scottish and Welsh citizens to secure EU citizenship as it is for the Northern Irish. Then people throughout the UK will be treated the same.
That still may happen, although given that it wasn't concluded in the first round of talks I'm not optimistic.
You're not making any sense. We are consistent, we give British citizenship and ONLY British citizenship. We do not confer Irish citizenship on anyone, the Irish government do to those they consider Irish. Like the Israeli government or any other in the world that is their choice not ours.
You seem to consider those born in Ireland to not really be Irish. That's the problem. They're not getting special favours, they are Irish and you are not.
You don't have equality throughout the UK right now as it is, and haven't had it for some time, if you define equality as enjoying the benefits of dual citizenship with Ireland. And that lack is not a bad or unreasonable thing either.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
It's only comparable in the sense that both sides can apply for EU citizenship; however one side (NI) gets that by default, whereas the other will need to meet a complex and involved set of criteria.
Didn't I already make that clear?
No. I don't know what the solution is, but I want my government - who have taken my rights away - to find a way to give me EU citizenship as easily as the Northern Irish get. If they can't do that then I will continue to feel aggrieved and judge the outcome to be unfair, for me. Which is exactly why I said it was unfair. Why is that so hard to understand and why do you keep challenging me on it?
If it's any consolation, I don't think you are either.
RB considers your loss to be fair. He doesn't like being faced with the reality of your thoughts, opinions and feelings on the matter. Always easier to discuss these things in the abstract.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I agree but, again, that's not the issue here. Equality right now is less of an issue because the outcome is the same; we all have EU citizenship by default.
Now I don't (or likely won't) - and that's why I'm irritated.
Can't we request a firmware update or something?
If it's any consolation, the Goalposts of Time are still moving.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
No everyone gets it exactly the same: get citizenship from a nation state. EU citizenship does not exist in a vacuum it is tied to the member states.
The Irish don't get Irish citizenship to become EU citizens. They do it because they are Irish.
You are just being frankly selfish wanting something but not actually wanting what it means. You don't want to be Irish, you don't want to be German. The way to get EU citizenship is either to get the UK to rejoin the EU or to meaningfully become a citizen of another nation.
To exploit the divisions of Ireland and the unity that has been hard fought for your own desires is twisted.
Because the Irish are not relevant. You want to be European that badly then campaign to rejoin the EU. Or find a nation that wants you.No. I don't know what the solution is, but I want my government - who have taken my rights away - to find a way to give me EU citizenship as easily as the Northern Irish get. If they can't do that then I will continue to feel aggrieved and judge the outcome to be unfair, for me. Which is exactly why I said it was unfair. Why is that so hard to understand and why do you keep challenging me on it?
It is unreasonable on the Europeans to expect them to offer us citizenship for no reason at all.
I consider his loss the downside of Brexit. If there was a way to Brexit and keep EU citizenship I would want that too. But that would be having our cake and eating it too. There is no way in a million years you would agree to that.
When have I ever said or implied such a thing? I've made position perfectly clear but, for the last time, I want my government to find a way for me to retain my EU citizenship as easily as someone in NI will. Sounds like you do too.
Is wanting that somehow disrespecting the Irish and their plight? No. Obviously not.
Is it possible? Probably not.
Does that mean I should magically feel content about that? No.
It is possible. Be a member state of the EU. There is no other possible solution.
Contrasting with Northern Ireland is disrespectful as that is unique. To the unionists they are British, to the republicans they are Irish. So the compromise is to respect both. The EU is neither here nor there.
What you are asking is like suggesting Canadians should automatically get American citizenship. Why would America agree to that? Why should Europe? We can't both have our freedom from Brussels and maintain citizenship of that union. The solution to what you want is clear and simple, seek for Britain to be a part of the EU. Not apart from it but still maintaining citizenship.
Am I wrong?
Hence why my original response to you on this subject was not dismissive of your hurt, but simply saying your ssue is with our exiting not the Irish.
You can enjoy some/many of the benefits of citizenship if the UK joins the EEA agreement.
When have I ever said or implied such a thing? I've made position perfectly clear but, for the last time, I want my government to find a way for me to retain my EU citizenship as easily as someone in NI will. Sounds like you do too.
Is wanting that somehow disrespecting the Irish and their plight? No. Obviously not.
Is it possible? Probably not.
Does that mean I should magically feel content about that? No.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
That is true. I would be happy with that.
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It is the issue. I quoted you, "I want equality throughout the UK. Do you?" Unless you don't actually give a rat's ass about equality and that was just a memetic term you threw around to try and feign some kind of inherent rightness to what you do give a rat's ass about?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
This man is either inexcusably ignorant or unacceptably deceptive. Either way, he should shut up, or at least educate himself about the WTO.
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In other news, Brexiters are silly:
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I want equality in the context of how easy it is for all UK citizens to have access to EU citizenship. I'm pretty sure I've made that clear several times.
Yes, because I've never actually suggested a solution. You're the one that keeps assuming what solution you think I want, and using inappropriate comparisons to prove that I shouldn't feel it's unfair.
Was it? I thought your original response was to try and challenge me on why I felt it was unfair.
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