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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #121
    Whereas if you only look at contested decisions (excluding unanimous votes) it might be much more than 12%, but that's equally meaningless. Nobody is disputing or caring about decisions made without contention. The honest figure is the one quoted however you want to mask it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Whereas if you only look at contested decisions (excluding unanimous votes) it might be much more than 12%, but that's equally meaningless. Nobody is disputing or caring about decisions made without contention. The honest figure is the one quoted however you want to mask it.
    No you can never go over 12% because that already is based on all cases in which you have a vote. In matters where there is no dissenting voice there simply is no vote.

    How this works in reality is; item is put on the table, established is if there are any potential dissenting opinions, then there is talked about possible changes to the proposal, if changes are possible, the question of dissent is put to the participants again and if necessary there is more talk about solutions. Only if at the end of it you come to the conclusion that you can't get everyone on board, you decide to actually vote on the issue and you can be either outvoted (no versus yes) or express that you didn't actually vote in favor (abstension).You can't be outvoted or abstain if there is no actual vote because there is nobody left objecting.
    Last edited by Hazir; 04-06-2017 at 05:18 AM.
    Congratulations America

  3. #123
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    There's also the other side of the narrative he conveniently lets fall under the table: It may very well be that the increase from 5% to 12% is not because everyone else outvotes you - but because the UK became much more contrarian.

    Like a misbehaving child which constantly says "No!" even when it doesn't make any sense.
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  4. #124
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    I think one advantage of Brexit is that the rest of Europe can ditch British spelling and idiom. It makes perfect sense that we would follow American in the future.
    Congratulations America

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    No you can never go over 12% because that already is based on all cases in which you have a vote. In matters where there is no dissenting voice there simply is no vote.

    How this works in reality is; item is put on the table, established is if there are any potential dissenting opinions, then there is talked about possible changes to the proposal, if changes are possible, the question of dissent is put to the participants again and if necessary there is more talk about solutions. Only if at the end of it you come to the conclusion that you can't get everyone on board, you decide to actually vote on the issue and you can be either outvoted (no versus yes) or express that you didn't actually vote in favor (abstension).You can't be outvoted or abstain if there is no actual vote because there is nobody left objecting.
    You're wrong actually, unanimous votes are included in the total. Given how miniscule most minority figures are (especially pre-2009) it would be very hard to think how it would be possible to reach those figures in the first place anyway if you were right. But other reports refer to how about 75% of the votes are unanimous, which means the UK loses the vote in nearly half of the times there is a contested vote! If you don't believe me you can check the source figures, numerous unanimous votes are all recorded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    There's also the other side of the narrative he conveniently lets fall under the table: It may very well be that the increase from 5% to 12% is not because everyone else outvotes you - but because the UK became much more contrarian.
    Because its meaningless. As already discussed with Aimless this is in the Council of Ministers meaning it is the UK government ministers casting these votes not other parties like UKIP in Parliament. So we lose nearly half the contested votes that our government takes part in. If our government is doing a bad job we can elect a new government so whether they're doing a good job or not is moot to this discussion. As it happens I back my government at the moment (I did not before 2010 but appreciate the fact we could chuck the buggers out in 2010).
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I think one advantage of Brexit is that the rest of Europe can ditch British spelling and idiom. It makes perfect sense that we would follow American in the future.
    That's a weird thing to care about. Though as it happens these things are evolving anyway, take for instance the word billion - even the UK government and UK businesses now mean an American billion and not a British billion which is now called a trillion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're wrong actually, unanimous votes are included in the total. Given how miniscule most minority figures are (especially pre-2009) it would be very hard to think how it would be possible to reach those figures in the first place anyway if you were right. But other reports refer to how about 75% of the votes are unanimous, which means the UK loses the vote in nearly half of the times there is a contested vote! If you don't believe me you can check the source figures, numerous unanimous votes are all recorded.
    Because its meaningless. As already discussed with Aimless this is in the Council of Ministers meaning it is the UK government ministers casting these votes not other parties like UKIP in Parliament. So we lose nearly half the contested votes that our government takes part in. If our government is doing a bad job we can elect a new government so whether they're doing a good job or not is moot to this discussion. As it happens I back my government at the moment (I did not before 2010 but appreciate the fact we could chuck the buggers out in 2010).

    That's a weird thing to care about. Though as it happens these things are evolving anyway, take for instance the word billion - even the UK government and UK businesses now mean an American billion and not a British billion which is now called a trillion.
    No Randblade, if there is no vote there is no vote. It is noted that the council has taken a decision and that's it. Only if there is an actual vote it will be registered as a vote. And only then you will have the possibility of the unanimous vote.

    If there is a democratic deficit in the EU way of making laws it is this; we con't know if and how our representatives vote. Which makes it a bit of a black box. The deficit was never really that the system isn't representative, it's that we can't check what our representatives are doing. The numbers you parade around about the UK being outvoted are pretty meaningless if you take into account that the Single Market itself is mostly a British construct. What you guys did is decide which movie to see, get to pick seats first and then decided to leave the theatre in a hissyfit over the popcorn not being salty enough.
    Last edited by Hazir; 04-15-2017 at 06:31 AM.
    Congratulations America

  7. #127
    http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-reg...4-on-key-.html

    The data source is votewatch.eu - go to votewatch.eu and you can find archived plenty of 28-0 votes like this one here. So you're wrong.

    If unanimity were impossible to record then it would be literally impossible to make 2004-2009's figures because there is <2% losing votes for almost all nations and even the biggest losers like the UK peak at <3%
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #128
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ency?CMP=fb_gu

    So silly. Can't they just subpoena the government for the kids' smartphone location data?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  9. #129
    Bureaucrats

    That's what happens when bureaucrats rather than companies are required to provide a "service".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #130
    You're right, they should have punched the kids in the face and dragged them kicking and screaming out of the UK.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #131
    At least with companies we can boycott United. I wouldn't fly United or Ryanair before this and wouldn't afterwards. How do you boycott a monopoly supplier government run agency?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #132
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    How don't you see it's another example of British incompetence? You guys had a bunch of crazies run away with a referendum over the future of your country on the basis of hunches, not facts.

    Immigrants became a problem for the UK after the referendum they weren't before. The whole mess also shows us that your home office is in total disregard for the actual law and the rights these people have.
    Congratulations America

  13. #133
    How don't you see that I believe all bureaucracies to be incompetent?

    I'd rather British incompetence than European incompetence, at least then we can hold people to account.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #134
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    It's a policy choice on the side of the UK government to break the law. Saying that 'all bureaucracies are incompetent' is just a-grade bullshit. Typically uttered by people who've got no idea.

    In other news : Brexiteers angry about losing EU agencies, you can't make it up. (source)
    Congratulations America

  15. #135
    Bureaucrats being petty pedantic arseholes is not a policy choice. American bureaucrats think three month olds are terrorists.

    http://nypost.com/2017/04/16/baby-mi...hes-visa-form/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #136
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    How don't you see that I believe all bureaucracies to be incompetent?
    Oh, yes, anarchy is the better alternative all-around.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #137
    Who proposed anarchy. It's possible to believe bureaucracies are both inefficient and a necessary evil. Part of being a necessary evil is being evil. The first place as well as necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #138
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    So basically you're talking out of your backside again.

    In other news; should be fun to see Mr De Pfeffel chucked out of his seat
    Congratulations America

  19. #139
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    I thought rand said early elections were not possible?

    Either way I think it's good to have them although less than 2 months seems rather soon.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I thought rand said early elections were not possible?

    Either way I think it's good to have them although less than 2 months seems rather soon.
    They are possible with the support of Labour, and Labour obviously doesn't mind being led to the slaughter so there will be elections. Otherwise this is the way Brits do elections; they call them and they have them. They don't want people to get informed during the campaign I guess. I wonder what the platform of the Conservative Party will contain about Brexit; for May to have any benefit from this elections she should destroy the Breximaniacs in her party.
    Congratulations America

  21. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I thought rand said early elections were not possible?

    Either way I think it's good to have them although less than 2 months seems rather soon.
    Edit: apparently it needed a 2/3 vote in Parliament, and Labour is on board.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I thought rand said early elections were not possible?

    Either way I think it's good to have them although less than 2 months seems rather soon.
    No quite the opposite. I've always maintained that except in a hung parliament the Fixed Term Parliament Act is fairly meaningless as any majority PM could just call an election and all opposition MPs would be honour bound to vote in favour of the early election. What is the alternative? Corbyn coming out and saying "I'm deeply unpopular in the polls and think I'm going to lose so no we'd rather you continue as PM actually". Once the PM has told the media there should be an election there realistically has to be one, except if there's a hung parliament and someone else could become PM instead.

    As for time, 5 to 6 weeks was always standard for the duration of our campaigns. I believe the FTPA requires six weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #143
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    After the funny notion that the EBA and EMA could possibly stay in London after Brexit, the EU hasn't only poured water on this idea, but also has informed that it thinks the British government should pay for its re-location as part of the liabilities to be settled on the occasion of Brexit.
    Congratulations America

  24. #144
    That's a ridiculous suggestion. The EU's welcome to stay in London if they want (they have signed a long lease to do so), or welcome to leave if they want. That's entirely their choice. We're not liable for what they decide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's a ridiculous suggestion. The EU's welcome to stay in London if they want (they have signed a long lease to do so), or welcome to leave if they want. That's entirely their choice. We're not liable for what they decide.
    Trying to blame Brexit on us I see. You break it you pay it.
    Congratulations America

  26. #146
    Nothing's broken, the building is as good as it was before and you are more than welcome to continue to be tenants of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #147
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nothing's broken, the building is as good as it was before and you are more than welcome to continue to be tenants of it.
    I see that you're kind of ignorant on who pays for what when a contract gets nullified by one party. Hint: It's not the contract-breakers who don't have to pay.

    Also: In which fantasy world of yours do any kind of governmental instutitions not reside in the countries they're responsible for? And, no, embassies don't count.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #148
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    I must say it would be absolutely lovely if the deal for citizens didn't just mean the same rights for EU citizens in the UK as they have now, but those rights on the basis of EU directives like today with the ECJ having jurisdiction. Taking back control wouldn't exactly be the way I describe that; being reduced to a client state would be more like it. Brexit is Brexit and we're gonna make a success of it
    Congratulations America

  29. #149
    Not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #150
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    Well, maybe not if you vote UKIP. Otherwise I think it's perfectly possible
    Congratulations America

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