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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #1531
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    You're really dumber than a box of rocks. Norway has their house in order, financially and politically.

    You people? Not so much.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  2. #1532
    Stop talking to the mirror. I keep bringing facts from the real world into the conversation and are just drowning flailing around casting aspersions, insults, swearing and not making any factual remarks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway...pinion_polling

    Polls aren't entirely reliable but in the most recent poll Norwegians go against prospective European Union membership with just 16% in favour and 66% against. It was your idea to ask them but it doesn't support your case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #1533
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    I can't believe you're comparing the British pre-rebate contribution per capita with the net Norwegian contribution per capita.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  4. #1534
    I'm glad you can't believe that as I'm not. Those are post-rebate figures being used.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #1535
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm glad you can't believe that as I'm not. Those are post-rebate figures being used.
    Your net contribution is around 8.5
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #1536
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #1537
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Your net contribution is around 8.5
    That's because of money spent in the UK which the article acknowledges. Net of rebate is 14.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #1538
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    We need to end the discrimination against non-Europeans. It's racist, counter productive and unfair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #1539
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We need to end the discrimination against non-Europeans. It's racist, counter productive and unfair.
    Care to tell us how this lofty goal of openness to the world is going to work out in practise? I'm sure 1.5bn people from the Indian subcontinent will be very interested in how you combine your taking back of control of your borders with being open to the entire world.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  10. #1540
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Care to tell us how this lofty goal of openness to the world is going to work out in practise? I'm sure 1.5bn people from the Indian subcontinent will be very interested in how you combine your taking back of control of your borders with being open to the entire world.
    We should create sane, simplified and clear rules such that a Psychiatrist from eg India is not discriminated against w.r.t. the equivalent or less talented from eg Romania. 93% of the world's population is outside of the EU so discriminating heavily against them but allowing free movement from the 7% of primarily white Europeans is not a healthy solution.

    I wrote about this two years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Migration
    I'm a fervent believer in free movement and the benefits of immigration. However one argument I'd never thought of until recently is that EU migration is displacing non-EU migration. There are over 6.5 billion non-EU people and approximately 445 million EU people. But EU migration makes up approximately half of all migration and has grown dramtically since Eastwards expansion and in an attempt to bring the total net migration figure down consecutive governments have tightened the screws tougher and tougher for anyone outside the EU. Now in order to get a "skilled workers visa" a non-EU citizen needs an employer to sponsor them with a salary of at least £35,000 per annum (nearly double what it was a few years ago). That means that while an unskilled Romanian who doesn't speak English can simply arrive with no work, a nurse or teacher from Australia or Canada can't get a visa on a nurse or teacher's salary. That's not fair. Boris Johnson has been someone who has always been pro-immigration and he has made a convincing argument that we should leave in order to treat people equitably, rather than doing the usual ravings against migrants the likes of Farage do.

    Incidentally I grew up in Australia, which is partially perhaps why I'm so pro-migration. I did not realise how badly we were pulling up the drawbridge on Australians and the rest of the world at present and I found that shocking, repugnant and offensive.

    Furthermore my sister-in-law is a Canadian citizen, a teacher in training (in her final year of placement after completing uni). She has looked into working potentially in the UK and as a British citizen [via my Scottish father-in-law] she could but any of her classmates would be forbidden. A skilled, qualified teacher who speaks English is a more valuable migrant than an unskilled migrant. We should be fair. An "Australian-style points based immigration system" already exists for 93% of people in the world, but because it doesn't for 7% which includes many impoverished nations the requirements are being made tougher and tougher. Treat everyone the same and make it easier again like it used to be.

    It will be a shame to lose the right to live, travel, move etc across all of Europe on a British passport, I still love the idea of that. But realistically for holidays there will never be a visa requirement either way (there wasn't in western Europe pre-EEC and isn't when I holiday in Canada).

    Summary: Let's embrace the whole world, not a small corner of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #1541
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We should create sane, simplified and clear rules such that a Psychiatrist from eg India is not discriminated against w.r.t. the equivalent or less talented from eg Romania. 93% of the world's population is outside of the EU so discriminating heavily against them but allowing free movement from the 7% of primarily white Europeans is not a healthy solution.

    I wrote about this two years ago.
    And proximity is not an issue? You also consider preferential treatment of Brits over foreigners as discriminatory?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  12. #1542
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    And proximity is not an issue? You also consider preferential treatment of Brits over foreigners as discriminatory?
    I don't see why proximity is an issue no. I grew up in a nation with a 26 hour flight time (actual time longer as the distance was so far you couldn't fly direct in those days). Would I discriminate against those 26 hour flight away? Absolutely not!

    However even if we went off proximity we are closer to Morocco than we are to Romania or other very Eastern nations, so why are we giving favours to them over the others?

    Your second question is confusing. If it's what you mean then I don't view treating citizens differently to non-citizens as discriminatory. I do view having a terrible migration system for 93% of the globe to be discriminatory and we need to fix that not mask it by having a terribly difficult one for 93% and no system at all for 7%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #1543
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    And meanwhile you treat the people who are already there like crap.

    Good job.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  14. #1544
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    On the day the EU decided what it expects from Brexit Britain in all of 2 minutes, ms May (actual PM of the United Kingdom) is being made fun of by Ms Merkel (acting Bundeskanzlerin of Germany) for not telling what she wants. But that seems a bit harsh to me as ms May is heading a cabinet at war with itself when it tries to explain what Brexit actually is. In the EU we have a simple way of saying it; Brexit is Brexit.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  15. #1545
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And meanwhile you treat the people who are already there like crap.

    Good job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ghter-in-egypt

    Working hard on solving the NHS crisis, I see.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  16. #1546
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    On the day the EU decided what it expects from Brexit Britain in all of 2 minutes, ms May (actual PM of the United Kingdom) is being made fun of by Ms Merkel (acting Bundeskanzlerin of Germany) for not telling what she wants. But that seems a bit harsh to me as ms May is heading a cabinet at war with itself when it tries to explain what Brexit actually is. In the EU we have a simple way of saying it; Brexit is Brexit.
    And they only have till October. Fun times.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #1547
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    I must say I was a bit amused when the Guardian liveblog on Brexit switched away from Davis telling what he thought about Brexit at the House of Lords Brexit committee to Barnier in Brussels. It got even funnier when I read that Davis wanted a right to object to new EU legislation which simultaneously was shot down in Brussels.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  18. #1548
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #1549
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    That's what the analysis before the referendum said. You know, the one that said that we'd be in a recession by now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #1550
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's what the analysis before the referendum said. You know, the one that said that we'd be in a recession by now.
    This is the government's analysis that it does not want to make public out of embarrassment. It shows the government's best estimate right now. If forecasts are as good as looking at entrails, why is the government wasting limited resources on them?

    You know as well as I do that the forecasts are conditional and, so long as the conditions are not met, they are not applicable. They do however give an indication of beliefs about reality. Even when they aren't accurate, they can suggest the magnitude of the effect of a particular decision, and the direction of travel.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #1551
    Indeed they are stabs in the dark with major caveats and margins of error, hence the caveats quoted at the bottom of the article.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #1552
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed they are stabs in the dark with major caveats and margins of error, hence the caveats quoted at the bottom of the article.
    Which is somehow worse than making things up using numbers pulled directly out of one's ass or trying to avoid the question entirely
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #1553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Which is somehow worse than making things up using numbers pulled directly out of one's ass or trying to avoid the question entirely
    Brextremism has a breath taking ability to eat its own children; yesterday Fox and Davis were solidly anti-EU and today they're painted as toadies of the EU. I wonder what a brush up with reality will do to the newest 'anti-establishment hero' Rees-Mogg.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  24. #1554
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's what the analysis before the referendum said. You know, the one that said that we'd be in a recession by now.
    OH, you mean those based on the lie that article 50 would be triggered the day after the referendum? You know, that's the problem with forecasting; if politicians do not even attempt to look as if they're saying the truth it becomes very hard to tell what the likely outcome of their actions will be.

    But this time it's not politicians talking, it's your Civil Service crunching the numbers. And coming to the conclusion that this whole Brexit nonsense is going to cost you between 50bn and 200bn a year. And given that your PM is still talking nonsense about deals we won't talk about it seems very likely that it's gonna be a whole lot closer to the latter figure.
    Last edited by Hazir; 01-30-2018 at 09:24 PM.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  25. #1555
    https://www.ft.com/content/7f7669a4-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5

    EU rejects Brexit trade deal for UK financial services sector

    EU Brexit negotiators have set out a tough line on financial services, ruling out an ambitious trade deal for the lucrative sector and arguing that Europe would benefit from a smaller City of London, according to confidential discussions among the other 27 EU member states.

    In a rebuff to the UK, which is seeking to put financial services at the heart of a trade deal with the bloc, an internal EU27 meeting this week concluded that future arrangements should be based on “equivalence” — the limited and revocable access given to third-country institutions — rather than a wide-ranging new pact.

    At present, such provisions give financial groups from countries such as the US conditional access to the single market for some services.

    “There was a strong commission message that there would be no special deal,” said an EU diplomat briefed on the discussions — a first attempt to thrash out the bloc’s position on the issue before negotiations with Britain start in March. “The UK is being told from the beginning what the situation is.”

    Another EU diplomat said: “They are out of the internal market, that’s it. There can only be a much less ambitious agreement.”

    Ensuring that financial services are not badly hit by Brexit is a top priority for the UK, since the sector is Britain’s biggest source of exports and tax revenue.

    Theresa May’s government has also argued that if the City were damaged it would adversely affect financial stability and EU groups’ cost of financing, while contributing to the fragmentation of the sector.


    But participants said that in the EU27 meeting the European Commission played down the risks of cutting off the City to EU businesses, saying that the financial sector was mobile enough to adapt.

    They added that the commission maintained that a smaller City could benefit financial stability and the development of capital markets in the EU27, an argument that Spain also vocally supported.

    The discussion focused on future relations after a transition period that Brussels intends to end by December 31 2020.

    The commission negotiator also told the meeting that giving the City extensive market access could leave the EU more vulnerable in a crisis.

    Brussels’ fear is that, in a financial emergency, UK regulators would prioritise continuity in companies’ UK operations over their activities in the EU27. This could lead to outflows of capital and liquidity or the withdrawal of vital services at a critical moment.

    One senior diplomat said that the commission had underlined the importance of making sure that the EU did not lose “influence” over the UK financial sector, which could “have such a huge impact on the EU”.

    While no country contradicted the approach of the commission, which is conducting the negotiations with the UK, the discussion highlighted differences between member states.

    Germany, Sweden and Luxembourg cited the benefits of continuing co-operation with the UK, while France argued that the costs of a hard break would be limited and easy to contain.

    Like the commission, Paris said there was a need to prevent the UK undercutting the bloc’s financial rules, and urged Brussels to encourage London-based companies to trigger relocation plans.

    According to one person briefed on its thinking, the commission will send out notices warning a wide range of different financial groups to be prepared for Brexit and the lapse of the UK’s rights as an EU member.

    These include banks and payment service providers, insurers, asset managers and brokerages, as well as auditors and credit-rating agencies.

    Brussels has already prepared itself for Brexit by toughening its criteria for granting equivalence to systemically important non-EU financial centres, and the commission negotiator told the meeting that intensive talks would be needed with the UK on financial stability arrangements.

    The commission official also said that the ball was in the UK’s court to set out ideas for how trade in financial services might operate after Brexit.
    A UK government official said: “We are confident of negotiating a deep and special economic partnership that includes a good deal for financial services, and protects the City of London’s position as the world’s leading financial centre.

    “We start from the unique position of regulatory alignment and trust in one another’s institutions. The UK’s financial services sector plays an essential role in the European economy and so it is in the interests of all parties to secure a deal.”
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #1556
    The UK continues to be its own worst enemy in the negotiations:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics...s-coming-to-uk
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #1557
    Theresa May is a fucking moron, I wish my party would no confidence her. I have no confidence in her.

    She asked for the transition. The EU has all-but-agreed the transition on the basis that the UK continues to respect the rules which of course include free movement. This is not a field to fight and die on. If you want a fight over something, try and ensure there's a protection of some sort that while we don't have voting rights a rule isn't put in that does us serious damage, or try to secure a good long-term deal - don't fight the existing rules during the transition period you asked for. MORON!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #1558
    From the Brexiter perspective this makes perfect sense. You don't want a bunch of Bulgarians and Romanians sneaking in during the transition period and settling permanently in the UK.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #1559
    You mean from your warped interpretation of what a Brexiter is it may make sense. It doesn't make any sense to me. Unlike May I voted for Brexit.

    May isn't a Brexiter and it shows. She has none of the sunny optimism that helped Gove and Boris win, instead she's pathetic and latched onto the small, closed-minded stereotype of what you imagine a Brexiter to be. She should go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #1560
    No, it makes sense from the perspective of that large group of Brexiters who've made their opposition to FoM and European immigration very clear, along with their opposition to a protracted transition that essentially keeps the UK in the EU, arrangements that keep the UK in the single market and their preference for a swift and hard Brexit in general.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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