Brexit Begins

[Hazir]

You mean from your warped interpretation of what a Brexiter is it may make sense. It doesn't make any sense to me. Unlike May I voted for Brexit.

May isn't a Brexiter and it shows. She has none of the sunny optimism that helped Gove and Boris win, instead she's pathetic and latched onto the small, closed-minded stereotype of what you imagine a Brexiter to be. She should go.

That might very well be because the party you vote for has a good 35 members who are rabid on the issue and by being rabid make any sensible move on your relationship with the EU impossible. It doesn't matter very much who is leading your government; as long as the Conservative Party selects people disregarding their extremism on Europe that party can never deliver on Europe.

[Khendraja'aro]

That might very well be because the party you vote for has a good 35 members who are rabid on the issue and by being rabid make any sensible move on your relationship with the EU impossible. It doesn't matter very much who is leading your government; as long as the Conservative Party selects people disregarding their extremism on Europe that party can never deliver on Europe.

Indeed. They could put Bozo the Clown or the Reborn Jesus up there - it would matter not an iota.

[Aimless]

New Conservative Party logo is a stylized rendition of a drunk ostrich: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/9...579155974.html

These people are fucking incompetent.

Meanwhile, inspired by the shameful conduct of their counterparts on the other side of the pond, the Tories have declared an all-out war on career civil servants who are not permitted to defend themselves against this vileness: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/9...925178368.html

Tories have learned that the most effective approach is to tell your lies where they can't be challenged: https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/959016553198030848

Make no mistake--these are lies: http://www.cer.eu/in-the-press/state...-house-commons

If this were a novel, it would be panned for its absurdly foolish protagonists and the unrealistic plot.

[Aimless]

As expected:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-t...roll-over/amp/

[Khendraja'aro]

As expected:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-t...roll-over/amp/

Naw, that won't be a problem anyway:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-customs-union

So much for Rand's Norway or Switzerland choice. I guess that only leaves the nuclear option because there's only a snowball's chance in hell that Ireland will agree to any outcome.

[RandBlade]

Naw, that won't be a problem anyway:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-customs-union

So much for Rand's Norway or Switzerland choice. I guess that only leaves the nuclear option because there's only a snowball's chance in hell that Ireland will agree to any outcome.

You do realise that while I personally would be happy with Norway or Switzerland, Norway is already ruled out and has been for a long time. The Vote Leave campaign ruled it out, so the country knew what we were voting on, and in her Lancaster House speech last year the Prime Minister explicitly ruled it out. Nothing has ever changed or varied since.

Though since when were Norway or Switzerland in the Customs Union? The Norway option has the benefits of being in the Single Market but outside the protectionist Customs Union.

Ireland knows we have all along said there will be no customs union. Its in their interests to agree a trade deal over there not being one.

[Aimless]

As expected:

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/...-nhs-to-double

[RandBlade]

Seems reasonable.

[Khendraja'aro]

The british expats in Spain will be overjoyed by a reciprocal measure.

[RandBlade]

You do realise that Spain is in the EU don't you? "Non-EU" doesn't apply to Spain.

[Khendraja'aro]

You do realise that Spain is in the EU don't you? "Non-EU" doesn't apply to Spain.

You realize that you'll be "Non-EU" in just a few months?

[Aimless]

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/hit-t...-leak-11240254

More leaks. Comment about Tory civil war is spot on.

Twitter Link

[Aimless]

Brits settled in the Netherlands successful in getting their suit to retain EU citizenship and associated rights after Brexit referred to the ECJ:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...european-court

[gogobongopop]

Seems reasonable.

[RandBlade]

Agreed.

[Hazir]

The chances of such a case being won are low. Most of all because allowing continued EU citizenship would assume the British government is willing to uphold the technical and financial obligations underpinning freedom of movement

[Aimless]

I'm wondering if they may consider this to be a permanent acquired right in the case of people who've been settled in eg. the Netherlands for a long time. In reality I expect they will not retain their EU citizenship unless they apply for Dutch citizenship.

[Hazir]

I'm wondering if they may consider this to be a permanent acquired right in the case of people who've been settled in eg. the Netherlands for a long time. In reality I expect they will not retain their EU citizenship unless they apply for Dutch citizenship.

Question remains: who pays for British EU citizens if not the UK?

Or are these people going to be EU citizens in name only ?

[RandBlade]

If EU citizenship were to be truly separate from British citizenship as the lawyers argue then the EU should pay for its own citizens.

Though that's not going to happen.

[Hazir]

If EU citizenship were to be truly separate from British citizenship as the lawyers argue then the EU should pay for its own citizens.

Though that's not going to happen.

Given that the EU has no powers to collect taxes....

[LittleFuzzy]

Given that the EU has no powers to collect taxes....

Aren't these people paying the Dutch taxes and not UK taxes anyway? I thought you guys used a territorial tax system over there.

[RandBlade]

Indeed. If they're working in the Netherlands they're paying to the Netherlands.

[Hazir]

Aren't these people paying the Dutch taxes and not UK taxes anyway? I thought you guys used a territorial tax system over there.

They problem doesn’t lie in where they pay taxes. The problem lies in the coordination of social security, worker benefits and pensions. Freedom of movement implies that some entitlements can be enjoyed in a different state than where they were paid for in premiums or taxation depending on the local system. At the end of the day the state systems settle the differences. If the UK falls out of this system for new cases the systems of other countries would be facing deficits whenever a Brit would use his grandfathered EU citizenship to work/live in the EU. This is a problem which has no solution under EU law. The host country has no obligation to provide for it and the EU doesn’t have the means for it, nor the power to let the UK pay up. A logical way out would seem to limit grandfathering to those Brits who used their Union rights before Brexit, but that doesn’t solve the problem if such a Brit would move between the EU and UK after Brexit AND it would create at least two classes of EU citizenship.

I think the ECJ will decide that article 50 ends the application of article 20 on Brexit day.

[Hazir]

Indeed. If they're working in the Netherlands they're paying to the Netherlands.

Not always actually, but I guess most would prefer to be taxed in The Netherlands.

[Khendraja'aro]

They problem doesn’t lie in where they pay taxes. The problem lies in the coordination of social security, worker benefits and pensions. Freedom of movement implies that some entitlements can be enjoyed in a different state than where they were paid for in premiums or taxation depending on the local system. At the end of the day the state systems settle the differences. If the UK falls out of this system for new cases the systems of other countries would be facing deficits whenever a Brit would use his grandfathered EU citizenship to work/live in the EU. This is a problem which has no solution under EU law. The host country has no obligation to provide for it and the EU doesn’t have the means for it, nor the power to let the UK pay up. A logical way out would seem to limit grandfathering to those Brits who used their Union rights before Brexit, but that doesn’t solve the problem if such a Brit would move between the EU and UK after Brexit AND it would create at least two classes of EU citizenship.

I think the ECJ will decide that article 50 ends the application of article 20 on Brexit day.

I'd have absolutely no problems with giving them the right to apply for citizenship in the country where they're living/working right now. But staying a EU citizen after their homecountry willingly left the EU? Naw.

[Khendraja'aro]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...brexit-eu-says

This will be fun.

We could have avoided all this if your moron prime minister simply had stood up at some point and said: "This is the way we're doing this. Period. If you don't like it enact a vote of no-confidence and let someone else do this shit-show."

[Hazir]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...brexit-eu-says

This will be fun.

We could have avoided all this if your moron prime minister simply had stood up at some point and said: "This is the way we're doing this. Period. If you don't like it enact a vote of no-confidence and let someone else do this shit-show."

Well, the previous one also didn't have a backbone and gave the same lot the referendum, so they have tradition there.

This is fun too. The description of the article tell us: "How will Great Britain negotiate all those international treaties before Brexit? That question was left unanswered for a long time. Now we got the answer; 'Not at all'.

[Hazir]

I'd have absolutely no problems with giving them the right to apply for citizenship in the country where they're living/working right now. But staying a EU citizen after their homecountry willingly left the EU? Naw.

I'm a bit of an agnostic on the matter, but I don't see it happen given the problems it causes.

[Aimless]

This is fun too. The description of the article tell us: "How will Great Britain negotiate all those international treaties before Brexit? That question was left unanswered for a long time. Now we got the answer; 'Not at all'.

https://amp.ft.com/content/c4a0e4c0-...d-41ca06376bf2

[Ominous Gamer]

Britain to world: please pretend we are not leaving EU

fucked, so fucked.