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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #1891
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Unless you can start from a working version from other countries I doubt you'll get a properly working version during the transition period.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  2. #1892
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    There's already working versions in other industries, its not rocket science. Customs are at their base a tax and taxes don't work by having inspectors stop every transaction as it happens. I handle tens of thousands of pounds of taxes across an alphabet soup of taxes every month on average not one of which is monitored by HMRC. Duties, VAT, PAYE, NI, NNDR, MGD and more. Adding a return for customs would just be one more report to fill in.

    I self-report my obligations and if I lie I get heavily fined and/or go to prison.

    There is no more reason for customs taxes to be monitored directly than there are any other taxes. A couple of years is long enough to get trusted trader schemes up and running, get people responsible for making their own declarations and get everything up and running. If a bit longer is needed, extend the transition as necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #1893
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    Can someone please explain to Randy that his version of taking back control just means that in addition to EU customs regulations his government would simply add the extra burden of national customs regulations AND it is unthinkable that such a scheme would be allowed to exist outside of the remit of the ECJ.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  4. #1894
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Ultimately we won't be using your regulations and of course it will be outside the ECJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #1895
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    You can forget about that; the EU is never going to make EU policies subject to any non EU court. And that's aside from the fact that you keep forgetting that you are not trustworthy to start with.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #1896
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    We are absolutely trustworthy.

    We'll be a third party state its not an EU policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #1897
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    You are not. And enforcement of EU customs rules is EU business that we will not let you take control of even if we would let you do the execution.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  8. #1898
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    There's already working versions in other industries, its not rocket science.
    Actually it is. That is some complicated shit you're proposing. And no, before you waffle on about your own tax statements: It is most definitely NOT simply adding another checkbox on a form.

    Because in this case you have two governmental agencies involved. Which means that there will be a lot of architectural agreements to be made before you can even begin to think about the design of software and hardware. Because if you make it up as you go along you'll end up with a monstrosity which will not be declared finished before 2030. That is, if it will ever be declared finished. This is NOT something you can simply copy&paste.

    You seem to have a thing for this stupid notion that just because something looks superficially similar that you can simply use the same procedure as is.
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  9. #1899
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Oh its complicated? Gee I hadn't thought of that, clearly governments are only capable of dealing with simple shit and not complicated issues.

    I never said a new return would be a "checkbox".

    Oh and two agencies? Well forget it then, clearly governments are only capable of dealing with a single agency and not two whole agencies at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #1900
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    No, you still do no grasp the problem here: Two agencies from different governments. And thus subject to different laws.

    Unless, of course, you keep the EU legislation now and forever.

    And of course you said: "It's not rocket science." Well, guess what: That's a saying you make when you think something is NOT complicated. Do I really have to explain your own language to you once again?

    Plus, isn't it weird: You are one of the people regularly lambasting the government for getting nothing done. And suddenly you're very certain that this will work. The cognitive dissonance must make your head ring like a badly-tuned bell.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #1901
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    An international agreement would entail different governments!?

    Why didn't you tell me that sooner, that changes everything!

    There's a wide gap between 'simple shit' and 'rocket science'.

    I'm not an anarchist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #1902
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    Are you a troll or did you suffer brain damage?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  13. #1903
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No and no. You might want to ask Khen who thinks its newsworthy that international agreements will involve multiple governments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #1904
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I only see someone who obviously was never involved in any kind of serious software development.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No and no. You might want to ask Khen who thinks its newsworthy that international agreements will involve multiple governments.
    Let's try this again: This kind of thing would already be very complex if there was just one country involved (you might want to look at TollCollect to see how well something like this went). Now you have two.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  15. #1905
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Never heard of TollCollect but reading up on it, it seems to be up and running and has been for over a decade now. So that doesn't show that it is impossible whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #1906
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Never heard of TollCollect but reading up on it, it seems to be up and running and has been for over a decade now. So that doesn't show that it is impossible whatsoever.
    You might want to have a look at what that thing cost, how long it took and how much money it actually made.

    The time requirements might be particularly of interest to your case. Also: TollCollect was a walk in the park compared to what your requirements will be.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #1907
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    You seem hung up on time. That's what the transition is for. I'm not talking about the system we have up and running in nine months time, I'm talking about the eventual end-state. And I'm perfectly OK with extending the transition (or specifically a customs transition) as required so long as we eventually are out of the customs union.

    Besides as you have pointed out it will take time to negotiate new comprehensive trade deals outside of the EU parameters anyway which is the point of divergence where this system will be needed for. So time we have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #1908
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    If you get a transition.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  19. #1909
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Oh this nonsense again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #1910
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Each of the individual problems can be mitigated to some extent, given a lot of time, money and patience. However, all of the major problems cannot be solved by any of the plans still being bandied about by the Brits who already know that those plans are non-starters. Specifically, the Irish border issue cannot be solved in a way consistent with the commitments made by the UK when it accepted the December agreement, if it insists on running with its stupid plans.

    The UK getting a long transition period is entirely contingent on whether or not it will honor the commitments it made in December and reaffirmed later. The technical & logistical problems are staggering, and the UK is clearly not equipped to deal with those in an effective and timely manner, but that is irrelevant because the UK's biggest problem right now is that it can't seem to be able to keep its word. This is one of many reasons why the UK is regarded as being untrustworthy. Another reason that is especially relevant to this border & customs is that the EU has already seen that the UK cannot be relied upon to enforce customs regulations properly.

    You'd have an easier time understanding these things if you didn't insist on viewing them through the lens of your irrelevant personal experiences. Your anecdotes about doing your taxes are not relevant to the Irish border issue.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  21. #1911
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    You might get that extension if you deliver a reasonable list of concrete measures, software- and hardware-wise in detail. No handwaving of "oh, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it". And only if you yourself commit to a final deadline of: "Three years and then it has to be rolled out in a working state."
    Said list would have to be delivered come March. With a software company ready to go.

    I don't really see that happening. Even if you did have all the requirements actually finding a company will take you at least half a year. And pretty much all of the companies would then be able to bend you over the table because you would have a hard time limit because our patience is not unlimited.

    You really don't have the faintest clue of what problems you're facing with this approach.

    a) Getting the institutions involved on both sides of the border to agree on a modus operandi
    b) Nailing down the requirements
    c) Finding a company
    d) Writing the actual software and creating the actual hardware
    e) Prototyping and testing
    f) Roll-out

    For a project of this size, each of those steps has a multi-months if not multi-years requirement attached to it. And can easily fail at each step. You may continue your whaffling but seriously: You don't have a fucking clue of software and hardware development. You know NOTHING about that.

    You're currently not even showing that you're capable of handling problems entirely in your own area of responsibility - I mean, Dover will undergo a meltdown come Brexit-day.

    And now you want to sell us a bill of goods on something even more complicated than Dover?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #1912
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    That's more or less the assessment of professionals with relevant experience working in customs & taxation, logistics and software engineering.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #1913
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Here's the best part which I just realized: Finding a company either means waiting till March. Or having to bid for tender EU-wide with the very real possibility that a non-UK software company would win the bid (I mean, just look at what happened with the new passports).
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #1914
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #1915
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Here's the best part which I just realized: Finding a company either means waiting till March. Or having to bid for tender EU-wide with the very real possibility that a non-UK software company would win the bid (I mean, just look at what happened with the new passports).
    So what? Protectionism is bad if the best company to do it is an EU one do you have a reason why they shouldn't do it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #1916
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So what? Protectionism is bad if the best company to do it is an EU one do you have a reason why they shouldn't do it?
    No, I just find it hilarious that for all your whaffling about "taking back control" you'd then still be at the mercy of the EU.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  27. #1917
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No we wouldn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #1918
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I imagine that's the mantra you keep telling yourself while you gently rock yourself to sleep which otherwise wouldn't come.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  29. #1919
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No we wouldn't.
    If we allow you a transition period, then you'll have no room to diverge from rules set by the EU. Yet you will have no say in those rules. Sounds to me like a perfect example of being at the mercy of someone.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  30. #1920
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    In more "special relationship" news:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...pay-drugs/amp/

    Of course, Trump won't be in charge by the time a bilateral UK-US deal is concluded, but cost of pharmaceuticals is likely to be an important point of contention nevertheless.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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