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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #2791
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    You don't even know what a no deal means.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  2. #2792
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I don't care. Actions have consequences, we had this debate 2 years ago and knew the risks then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #2793
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    In an afternoon over a cup of tea the day after Brexit I believe it was.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  4. #2794
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't care. Actions have consequences, we had this debate 2 years ago and knew the risks then.
    You did not know two years ago and you still are clueless.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  5. #2795
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    In an afternoon over a cup of tea the day after Brexit I believe it was.
    How soon could we sort out any problems caused by Brexit? Yeah that sounds about right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #2796
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Untrue.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #2797
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Good! So should the UK. Time to replace our PM and prepare for no deal.
    You can replace your PM as many times as you like with whomever you like, but No Deal does not have a majority in parliament at the moment.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #2798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You can replace your PM as many times as you like with whomever you like, but No Deal does not have a majority in parliament at the moment.
    What's more important, no deal will not stand in court in the long run and will count as a default on sovereign debt immediately. The only 'advantage' a no-deal has for the UK is that there is a hard border on the island of Ireland. All other obligations will exist just as much as they did before the walking away. Except of course that the UK will have its reputation in tatters. Which is not a good thing for a smallish European country.

    Because that is what a no deal means Randy. It doesn't mean you won't have a deal the future, it will mean you have reneged on your commitments in the past.

    So, if there is anyone who desperately needs a deal it's you. And it is exactly this reason why your whole threath of walking away with no deal was as empty as a leaking barrel.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  9. #2799
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    The problem, of course, is that No Deal is still the default automatic outcome unless the UK requests and is granted an extension to continue negotiations. Analyses of Parliament's options are especially interesting now. Word out of Brussels seems to be that the negotiations aren't as stuck as they appear to be from the outside, with continuing movement on customs etc and continued assistance from Barnier with helping Tories find a way to clean up their mess—but not even a hint of a solution that will placate parliament.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #2800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The problem, of course, is that No Deal is still the default automatic outcome unless the UK requests and is granted an extension to continue negotiations. Analyses of Parliament's options are especially interesting now. Word out of Brussels seems to be that the negotiations aren't as stuck as they appear to be from the outside, with continuing movement on customs etc and continued assistance from Barnier with helping Tories find a way to clean up their mess—but not even a hint of a solution that will placate parliament.
    The UK government should make clear to its extreme fringes that 'no deal' has no positive sides for the UK. And do this so forcefully that the next ERG member who utters 'project fear' has the whip removed.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  11. #2801
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Hypothetically if the proposed "deal" included terms that every year we must send 12 young virgin men and women in chains to Rome to be offered as human sacrifices should we just sign that because no deal is not an option?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #2802
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The problem, of course, is that No Deal is still the default automatic outcome unless the UK requests and is granted an extension to continue negotiations. Analyses of Parliament's options are especially interesting now. Word out of Brussels seems to be that the negotiations aren't as stuck as they appear to be from the outside, with continuing movement on customs etc and continued assistance from Barnier with helping Tories find a way to clean up their mess—but not even a hint of a solution that will placate parliament.
    The issue is that what Barnier is demanded is quite appropriately entirely unacceptable to the DUP - who are now being backed up by the Scottish Conservatives. A division of the UK is utterly unacceptable.

    I respect Barnier's insistence that the UK needs to respect the integrity of the UK. That is reasonable. It is also reasonable that the integrity of the UK must be respected too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #2803
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Hypothetically if the proposed "deal" included terms that every year we must send 12 young virgin men and women in chains to Rome to be offered as human sacrifices should we just sign that because no deal is not an option?
    A bizarre straw-man argument doesn't turn into a real argument just because you append a "hypothetically" to it.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #2804
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No it does turn into a real argument. It is a reductio ad absurdum argument. If you truly believe that ANY deal is better than no deal then you would believe that a hypothetical deal that "included terms that every year we must send 12 young virgin men and women in chains to Rome to be offered as human sacrifices" must be better than no deal.

    If you don't then it is possible for a bad deal to be even worse than no deal. Which is of course logical, just because proposition B is bad does not mean that proposition A is automatically better than it. Proposition B could be bad but better than Proposition A. War is bad, but WWII was better than letting Hitler rule Europe. Chemotherapy is bad but is better than letting cancer go untreated. No deal is bad let there be no doubt about that, it does mean that any deal is automatically better.

    Sometimes in life bad things happen. Sometimes that is better than the alternative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #2805
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No it does turn into a real argument. It is a reductio ad absurdum argument. If you truly believe that ANY deal is better than no deal then you would believe that a hypothetical deal that "included terms that every year we must send 12 young virgin men and women in chains to Rome to be offered as human sacrifices" must be better than no deal.

    If you don't then it is possible for a bad deal to be even worse than no deal. Which is of course logical, just because proposition B is bad does not mean that proposition A is automatically better than it. Proposition B could be bad but better than Proposition A. War is bad, but WWII was better than letting Hitler rule Europe. Chemotherapy is bad but is better than letting cancer go untreated. No deal is bad let there be no doubt about that, it does mean that any deal is automatically better.
    This is an absurd use of reductio ad absurdum that relies on setting up a straw man that has no relation to anything that's being proposed or is even remotely plausible. Reductio ad absurdum is not a compelling or productive move when it relies on irrelevant & implausible premises or conditions. We're having a discussion about real world events, and arguments should be restricted to things that can be expected to hold true in or be relevant to our reality--not a fictional reality wherein the EU, in contravention of its own laws, demands a dozen human sacrifices annually to be sent to Rome of all places. The line between legitimate uses of reductio ad absurdum and fallacious straw-manning is sometimes thin, but it isn't difficult to discern.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  16. #2806
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The issue is that what Barnier is demanded is quite appropriately entirely unacceptable to the DUP - who are now being backed up by the Scottish Conservatives. A division of the UK is utterly unacceptable.
    You realize that this is actually just a hard consequence of what you yourself signed to stop the bombings? If you can't think things through then it's no wonder you people haven't got the faintest of clues.

    This whole mess is entirely of your own making. That's what the backstop is about: To make sure you suddenly don't unilaterally decide that "no border in Ireland" becomes too annoying and you want the killings back, thankyouverymuch. You've already renegged on a previous promise on this. Why should we trust you an inch now?

    You committed to the backstop last December.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #2807
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This is an absurd use of reductio ad absurdum that relies on setting up a straw man that has no relation to anything that's being proposed or is even remotely plausible. Reductio ad absurdum is not a compelling or productive move when it relies on irrelevant & implausible premises or conditions. We're having a discussion about real world events, and arguments should be restricted to things that can be expected to hold true in or be relevant to our reality--not a fictional reality wherein the EU, in contravention of its own laws, demands a dozen human sacrifices annually to be sent to Rome of all places. The line between legitimate uses of reductio ad absurdum and fallacious straw-manning is sometimes thin, but it isn't difficult to discern.
    It's not fallacious. The point is legitimate that there are deals that are worse than no deal. Whether you think this deal is better or worse than no deal is debatable but the fact that some deals are worse than no deal is not debatable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    You realize that this is actually just a hard consequence of what you yourself signed to stop the bombings? If you can't think things through then it's no wonder you people haven't got the faintest of clues.

    This whole mess is entirely of your own making. That's what the backstop is about: To make sure you suddenly don't unilaterally decide that "no border in Ireland" becomes too annoying and you want the killings back, thankyouverymuch. You've already renegged on a previous promise on this. Why should we trust you an inch now?

    You committed to the backstop last December.
    You're wrong. Categorically wrong.

    The GFA does not commit to no border in Ireland. There is a border in Ireland today. On different sides or the border lie different currencies, different tax rates, different governments, different countries, different units of measurement for driving. The border exists. What the GFA gave to both sides was the principle of consent. That amongst other things Catholics in Northern Ireland could consider themselves Irish despite being a part of the UK and for the Protestants in Northern Ireland that Northern Ireland would remain part of the UK unless Northern Ireland consented to change. That is explicitly written into the GFA. It gave the power to consent to changes within Northern Ireland to the people of Northern Ireland via the elected Assembly in Stormont (currently suspended).

    The backstop that was agreed in December was that the UK, whole UK, would commit as a backstop to honouring the rules necessary. IE May's ludicrous Chequers proposal. What was not committed to in December was that Northern Ireland only would unilaterally remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. To do so drives a coach and horses through the Good Friday Agreement by disempowering the people of Northern Ireland to change rules as they choose or to have a say in how they are governed or not. The people of Northern Ireland would have no MEPs, no votes in Council, no say in laws they are supposed to follow. They would be external to the EU, have no votes within the EU but be obliged to follow its laws. It is undemocratic and completely violates the GFA if you could stop being obnoxious long enough to realise the other side matters too. If you could get your head out of your arse to realise there were two sides to the violence and two sides to the agreement and both sides have to be respected.

    Unless you want the UVF etc and other loyalist paramilitaries to start bombing again, tearing up the GFA and removing the Northern Irish populations right to consent is not appropriate. Do you want the killings back? Why are you ripping up the consent rights of the Northern Irish? Why should they be subjugated into having laws they had no say over?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #2808
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    As if the same isn't true of those people in Northern Ireland who resent being part of the UK. More people in Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU than voted to be outside of the EU. The reason why they are forced out of the EU is that a minority of their radicals has teamed up with the ruling party in another country in order to force their will upon the majority. Keeping NI inside the EU if anything is honoring the vote.

    As for the no deal scenario; the difference between a deal and no deal is whether you put a signature to a document containing your obligations or those obligations being enforced in court. There is no deal worse than no-deal for that simple reason. The fact that you can conjure up crazy fantasy deals doesn't change that.

    No deal means; the UNITED KINGDOM can not be trusted to honor its obligations; that has a short term effect in concluding that your government has defaulted on its debts and a long term effect that potential partners will be aware of the fact that you chose to do so. And then of course we have the plethora of deals you will need once you have fallen off the cliff just to continue functioning on some level. How much will we hurry you think to get your planes flying again? And what price you think we will extract for that?

    And the moves of the French government these days on the post-Brexit visa regime could put you in a position similar to Turkey when it comes to travel.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  19. #2809
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    If the people in Northern Ireland want to leave the United Kingdom and join the Republic of Ireland then the Good Friday Agreement is clear on that, they have that right. If they want to remain in the United Kingdom they have that right. The GFA gives that to them to decide. If they want to have a referendum on border status then I'm fine with that if Stormont votes for it.

    The GFA does not give anyone the right to take Northern Ireland out of the UK and divide it from Britain without the consent of the Northern Irish. That is explicitly forbidden in the GFA and to keep NI in the EU unilaterally would violate the GFA unless they vote for it.

    If the deal proposed was just our obligations I'd have no qualms signing it. That is not the deal proposed so all the rest of your bullshit about defaulting on debts is just that. If we choose to honour the GFA and refuse to sacrifice NI on the altar of getting a deal that will be honouring our obligations. I'm not sure why you want to violate the GFA and see the UVF and other terrorists start up again because its been broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #2810
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    So many words to fudge that - in principle - the people of Northern Ireland will always be subject to the rules of a foreign power.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  21. #2811
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    They're not today. The UK is not a foreign power as they are part of the UK and elect MPs to Westminster. The EU is not a foreign power as they're part of the UK that is part of the EU and elect MEPs. Ireland is a foreign power but they're not subject to Irish rules.

    If this backstop goes ahead then NI will be in a hellish undemocratic limbo. Part of the UK and electing MPs to Westminster but not subject to British laws. Subject to EU laws but not electing MEPs and not having their national government's votes in the European Council. It is an absurd suggestion that violates the GFA completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #2812
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Dude, you're just a mouthbreathing idiot at this point. You're rambling and rambling and rambling without even giving the slightest bit of a hint that you're recognizing the actual problem. You have no clue what the GFA means or why there's this persistent problem.

    You've just proven that again. And you will continue to do so until you finally can hear the bombs going off for yourself. And then you'll blame us for a problem you created.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  23. #2813
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The UK is not a foreign power as they are part of the UK and elect MPs to Westminster. The EU is not a foreign power as they're part of the UK that is part of the EU and elect MEPs. Ireland is a foreign power but they're not subject to Irish rules.
    Okay, this is another sign that you're most likely suffering from CJD. Word garbage.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

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