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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #1381
    I don't see anything that's been torn down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #1382
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    You realize that the EU Parliament didn't exactly view Davis' statements with favour? There also won't be a "Ceta+++".
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  3. #1383
    So what? Davis's comments were correct.

    If you mean that talks won't progress to Phase II then yes there's a big issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #1384
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So what? Davis's comments were correct.

    If you mean that talks won't progress to Phase II then yes there's a big issue.
    You realize that we're talking about TWO separate contracts here? And you will not get to phase 2 if you don't fully commit to what you rpomised in phase 1. Bloody idiots, the lot of you.

    Did none of you ever think for five meters of gravelly road about this, how that sounds?

    "Oh, we'll pay!"
    One day later:
    "We'll pay only if we feel like it."
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #1385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    You realize that we're talking about TWO separate contracts here? And you will not get to phase 2 if you don't fully commit to what you rpomised in phase 1. Bloody idiots, the lot of you.

    Did none of you ever think for five meters of gravelly road about this, how that sounds?

    "Oh, we'll pay!"
    One day later:
    "We'll pay only if we feel like it."
    No, Randblade does not get that any relationship is based on trust. He does not understand that if you agree to something in principle the last thing you should say is that you may not honor your commitment. What he thinks of as 'logical' is actually seeding distrust and the UK will pay for this during the phase 2 negotiations through the inclusion of all sorts of guillotine stipulations in the final deal which will make sure that the whole deal collapses if the UK renages on even minor issues.
    Congratulations America

  6. #1386
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If they define themselves as solely a British citizen then they will not have EU citizenship. It is only if they take up Irish citizenship, having been born in Ireland, that they will have EU citizenship.

    Why compare yourself to Irish citizens taking up Irish citizenship having been born in Ireland?
    Literally can't understand what you're saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If a Chancellor says "vote for me or I'll do this" then doesn't do that and has no real intention of doing that then yes it is a lie and it was Project Fear.
    Being fired makes it a little difficult to deliver on your plan. That doesn't make it a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Trying to rebrand the Leave campaign as Project Fear when that was the government campaign is very amusing. There was no positive argument made by the government or almost anyone else in favour of remaining, it was all doom and gloom if we dared to vote Leave.
    That's an interesting perspective. I never bought into this whole "project fear" thing on the remain campaign.

    My view was that leave was all about fear. Fear of:

    • Immigrants bombing us
    • Immigrants raping our girls
    • Benefits tourism
    • "open borders"
    • The country being full
    • EU regulation strangling our businesses
    • EU regulation closing our businesses
    • An EU super army
    • An EU super state
    • The faceless bureaucrats out to cripple the UK for their own benefit
    • Losing more and more sovereignty to corrupt and unelected
    • The loss of "british values"
    • Spending £350m pounds a week that could have been spent on the NHS
    • The EU stopping us from trading with other nations
    • The EURO
    • Turkey
    • Refugees
    • etc


    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're still relentlessly negative and gloomy 18 months later. I on the other hand and most of the Vote Leave prospectus was optimistic and I still am optimistic. That things can and will be better. You may think it is delusional or a pipedream but it is hopeful and positive not Fear.

    Where was the positivity or optimism from your side? If there'd been some rather than relentless Fear alone you'd have probably won.
    The remain campaign was complacent and was completely outshone by the strategy of the leave campaign. I believe this was because the leave campaign tapped in brilliantly the our most powerful emotion - fear.

    Clegg and Cameron themselves actually tried to sell the benefits. I remember watching them talking about the principles of the EU; the fundamentals on which they are based; the idea that by working together we achieve more, sustainably. I remember them saying that, like any organisation, the EU isn't perfect, but to simply walk away was the worst possible option. They really connected with me at this point.

    I saw nothing positive from the leave campaign other than hypothetical rhetoric that I simply didn't believe - like putting my faith in God. I saw no evidence or data to substantiate their claims. I saw no experts come their rescue. So yeah, I'm still relentlessly negative and will continue to be regardless of the outcome - because I believe in the principles of the EU. Even if, by some miracle, we do end up with better living standards, I'll still feel negative because I believe that the EU is a remarkable institution that delivers wonderful things. Knowing that we're not at the table, having a lead role in that really depresses me.

  7. #1387
    Davis's comments are not really correct when you consider the agreement in its entirety and put it into context. For all intents and purposes, the agreement is binding and violation will make phase 2 negotiations impossible. This is also why they will be translated into law asap. Brexiters have also tried to push incorrect interpretations of the agreement. Put into a broader context, these comments show Britain to be an untrustworthy negotiating partner.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #1388
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Literally can't understand what you're saying here.
    I still want to know how you think something that has only been around for 25 years is your birthright.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #1389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Davis's comments are not really correct when you consider the agreement in its entirety and put it into context. For all intents and purposes, the agreement is binding and violation will make phase 2 negotiations impossible. This is also why they will be translated into law asap. Brexiters have also tried to push incorrect interpretations of the agreement. Put into a broader context, these comments show Britain to be an untrustworthy negotiating partner.
    Well, the discussion is becoming moot it seems, as the lack or trust in the UK as a negotiating partner is eroding so fast that the EU appearantly is upping the ante by demanding a legally binding form for the joint statement. So that was real smart of Davis to think that he could talk down the commitment for home use, still acting as if people in power in the EU don't read British papers.
    It would not surprise me at all if 'sufficient progress' regressed from 'achieved' to 'conditionally achieved' on the basis of Davis' stupidity.

    source
    Congratulations America

  10. #1390
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I still want to know how you think something that has only been around for 25 years is your birthright.
    Oh, erm, RB used that term in earlier conversation, implying certain people had a birthright to EU citizenship. I picked up on that and have been using that term several times since. Looks like I may have used it incorrectly that last time. Still, the point applies to be children, who's birthright it was, which is now being stripped away.

  11. #1391
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Oh, erm, RB used that term in earlier conversation, implying certain people had a birthright to EU citizenship. I picked up on that and have been using that term several times since. Looks like I may have used it incorrectly that last time. Still, the point applies to be children, who's birthright it was, which is now being stripped away.
    No I did not! I said they had a right to and I quote "British and Irish citizenship". Again there is NO SUCH THING as EU citizenship in isolation. Citizenship still to date belongs to the nation state which appears on your passport and if your nation happens to be part of the EU then that conveys EU citizenship on top of your actual citizenship. Find me anyone with "nationality: European Union" on their passport please.

    I asked if you would deny people their birthright of Irish citizenship. Not EU citizenship which does not exist in a vacuum.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade (Emphasis Added) View Post
    Yes I have done. Also don't forget that I personally was in favour of EU citizenship, I loved the idea of being able to travel freely across Europe and I hope a sensible path is worked out to see that continue.

    But I don't see why this feels unfair. Ireland has had a special relationship with the UK that predates the EEC. It predates WWII. Those born in Ulster being able to get British and Irish citizenship is not new and is not related to Brexit. It is not related to today's deal. That's like complaining that the French still have EU citizenship rights. It's not "moving forward" its a change, it is simply the status quo continuing and why shouldn't it? Should we seek to deprive those born their of their birthright that has nothing to do with us?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #1392
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    I find it refreshing by the way that attempts to appease the Breximaniacs aren't part of EU politics any longer.

    But I do wonder why remoaners still try to convince Breximaniacs like Rand. Given the propensity of the latter type to move the goal posts as often as they feel like moving them I wonder why remoaners feel they need to 'play by the rules'. The Breximaniacs made a non-binding referendum binding, what's stopping remoaners from tossing out the rule book as well and only go for a win?

    While I'd have no horse in that race, it would be fun to watch. Though maybe I should have gone for a blood sport analogy.
    Congratulations America

  13. #1393
    Looks like a may have misinterpreted that then. Wasn't very to be honest and doesn't change anything my end.

  14. #1394
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I find it refreshing by the way that attempts to appease the Breximaniacs aren't part of EU politics any longer.

    But I do wonder why remoaners still try to convince Breximaniacs like Rand. Given the propensity of the latter type to move the goal posts as often as they feel like moving them I wonder why remoaners feel they need to 'play by the rules'. The Breximaniacs made a non-binding referendum binding, what's stopping remoaners from tossing out the rule book as well and only go for a win?

    While I'd have no horse in that race, it would be fun to watch. Though maybe I should have gone for a blood sport analogy.
    The referendum was always morally and politically if not legally binding. The government said before the referendum it would honour the result and only the most extreme Remainiacs have suggested that it should be ignored.
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Looks like a may have misinterpreted that then. Wasn't very to be honest and doesn't change anything my end.
    I'm guessing a word is missing there, maybe clear? The point is that the Irish have Irish citizenship and you do not. Why you find it unfair the Irish have Irish citizenship is beyond me. Should we be seeking to prevent Irish citizens from getting Irish citizenship in order to level the playing field with you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #1395
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No I did not! I said they had a right to and I quote "British and Irish citizenship". Again there is NO SUCH THING as EU citizenship in isolation. Citizenship still to date belongs to the nation state which appears on your passport and if your nation happens to be part of the EU then that conveys EU citizenship on top of your actual citizenship. Find me anyone with "nationality: European Union" on their passport please.

    I asked if you would deny people their birthright of Irish citizenship. Not EU citizenship which does not exist in a vacuum.
    You are wrong as usual. The citizenship of the European Union does exist separate from the citizenship of a memberstate of the European Union despite the fac that the citizenship of a memberstate of the European Union is an absolute prerequisite for the citizenship of the European Union. The citizenship of the European Union bestowes different rights upon its bearers than the citizenship of a memberstate of the European Union. Also it doesn't bestow rights upon the barer of the citizenship of a memberstate of the European Union in the memberstate of which he is a citizen. The relevance of the citizenship of the European Union has a close relationship to the use of the Freedom of Movement. If you don't use the latter, you can also not use the rights given to the citizen.
    Congratulations America

  16. #1396
    No I am not wrong. If EU citizenship is not tied to member state citizenship then gogo and I should retain our EU citizenship post-Brexit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #1397
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm guessing a word is missing there, maybe clear? The point is that the Irish have Irish citizenship and you do not. Why you find it unfair the Irish have Irish citizenship is beyond me. Should we be seeking to prevent Irish citizens from getting Irish citizenship in order to level the playing field with you?
    Yeah, clear. Sorry using phone.

    And you're trying desperately to put words into my mouth aren't you? I have never said such a thing. I find it unfair that some British citizens (i.e. the majority of NI who identify as British) will continue to get EU citizenship.

    Why you want to deny the rest of the UK EU citizenship is beyond me.

  18. #1398
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I still want to know how you think something that has only been around for 25 years is your birthright.
    You know the word pedantic?
    Congratulations America

  19. #1399
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No I am not wrong. If EU citizenship is not tied to member state citizenship then gogo and I should retain our EU citizenship post-Brexit.
    Well, that is a question up for debate for those UK citizens using their rights as EU citizens already. These people have 'activated' their EU citizenship so to say and one can have serious doubts if the subsequent rights can be taken away just like that. Which is why the EU prefers to NOT change anything in the rights of these people and if pressuring the UK to do exactly the same. You and Gobonbopop can forget it, you are UK citizens and don't lose any rights due to Brexit, you merely lose access to rights.
    Congratulations America

  20. #1400
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Yeah, clear. Sorry using phone.

    And you're trying desperately to put words into my mouth aren't you? I have never said such a thing. I find it unfair that some British citizens (i.e. the majority of NI who identify as British) will continue to get EU citizenship.

    Why you want to deny the rest of the UK EU citizenship is beyond me.
    Again no British citizens are being granted EU citizenship post-Brexit by virtue of being British. The number of Northern Irish citizens who will hold solely British citizenship and EU citizenship is a grand total of 0 people. Irish citizens will be granted EU citizenship as part of their Irish citizenship. Irish not British.

    I don't seek to deny anybody EU citizenship, it isn't my decision to make. If the EU wants to offer citizenship to people who are not citizens of a member state then by all means let them do that and I would be delighted - I can't see that being very popular within the EU though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #1401
    Sovereign parliament takes back control from unelected autocrats and idiots:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...on-theresa-may
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #1402
    That's the idea
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #1403
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    Can anybody explain what difference they think this makes?
    Congratulations America

  24. #1404
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Can anybody explain what difference they think this makes?
    Directly? Very little. A few Tories growing a spine doesn't look good for May and the blundering Brexiteers. Our parliament largely runs on MPs blindly doing what they are told. Engaging brain is discouraged, hence how David Davis can have a political career,
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  25. #1405
    Hark! The people speak again:

    http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/indepen...tion-tensions/

    Young people, Labour voters, people with degrees and full-time jobs, students. Of course, FPTP will shield the Tories to some extent from the threat of democracy, but even so.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #1406
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    Time for a big fat LOL; the bank of England is going to allow European banks to do business in the UK without those banks having to set up independent subsidiaries in the UK. That means in essence that regardless of the final deal the EU sets the rules for how a part of the financial sector in London works. Take back control indeed.
    Congratulations America

  27. #1407
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    On the other hand, this move to make broadband access a right is a positive.

    It also made the idiotic conservatives at another board I frequent foam at the mouth. Because their US-centrism wasn't capable of even remotely considering that the word "right" is not necessarily 100% identical to the US definition of the word.

    They promptly wailed: "Now everyone gets internet for FREE! That's stealing from me! And SLAVERY!"

    A bunch of petty morons who heartily subscribe to "But what has the government ever done for ME? ME? ME! ME!"

    These people should go live in a mud hut somewhere remote if they don't want to live in a society and share a bit of their wealth.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #1408
    They have no wealth.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #1409
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #1410
    IMF tells Brexiteers: The experts were right, Brexit is already badly damaging the UK's economy
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a8119886.html

    damn those experts!
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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