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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #2821
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It is both fallacious and stupid, because it has no relevance to reality or to this present discussion. Hypothetically an alien spaceship could destroy Brussels, making this entire discussion moot, but it's pretty dumb to base a discussion on such an absurd hypothetical. What you showed, in effect, was that you could not find a realistic example of a deal that's objectively and obviously worse than no deal at all. You had to resort to using a straw man for your parody of a reductio ad absurdum argument that advanced no-one's understanding of anything that's being discussed right now. When Hazir suggests that any deal is better for the UK than a no deal crash-out, he isn't thinking about virgin sacrifices and alien spaceships, because he lives in the real world. As do the rest of us. Join us when you're ready.
    I never said anything about aliens. You're right we're not talking about sacrificing the lives of two dozen people. We are though talking about sacrificing the rights of nearly two million people. This isn't the eighteenth century, people have the right to elect politicians to shape their laws. But you want me to approve of sacrificing the rights of everyone in Ulster. You want all my compatriots to lose their right to hold those who make their laws to account. Because you believe that you are imperialistically more powerful and can subjugate smaller neighbours and we will have no choice but to sacrifice our compatriots. We will have no choice but to ignore the wishes of those elected by the population of Northern Ireland and disenfranchise them.

    That is real, that is what you are proposing. I truly wish that was me being absurd as it is an absurd suggestion, but it isn't. I deliberately chose sacrificing others as the analogy as that is literally what you are asking us to do. I have seen many Remainers and some Leavers too lamenting that the DUP are blocking a deal and saying they should be overridden. That we should sacrifice Northern Ireland for the greater good. No! No! No!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    As for this sanctimonious show of concern about NI and the Belfast agreement, no matter how you try to spin it it's pretty clear that the party that has come closest to violating the spirit of the argument is the UK, in taking NI out of the EU and creating a situation that will of necessity divide the island further without NI's consent (eg. through the institutions set up for consultation) and indeed against their will (strong pro-Remain majority in the referendum). The constitutional problems associated with any implementation of the backstop are easily resolved: put the matter to a vote in NI. NI is free to consent to a change in its laws whereby it will be required to accept EU rules pertaining to the single market while having no direct democratic representation at the EU. This right is indeed stronger than England's right to take NI out of the EU against its will.
    There is nothing within the GFA that prevents the UK from exiting the EU as we have every right to do. In fact post-GFA both the UK and the Republic of Ireland and every other nation within the EU have ratified that right. The Irish originally rejected Lisbon and we British didn't get a say via referendum but either way it got ratified by both nations ultimately creating the very Article 50 that has since been exercised. Had the Irish stuck by their original decision there would be no Article 50 and we'd probably still be remaining. But we are where we are and we have made a choice as a United Kingdom which includes Northern Ireland. Not England, not Wales (where a majority also backed Leave lest you forget) but the question on the ballot paper was the United Kingdom.

    I have absolutely no qualms with the population in Northern Ireland being free to consent to a change in its laws whereby it will be required to accept EU rules. That is their choice. That is not a choice they have made though. That is not a choice you want them to have. If we ratify this backstop that choice wouldn't have been made by them but rather for them. The population in Northern Ireland elects their own MPs to Westminster and MLAs to Stormont. If the MLAs in Stormont choose to have a referendum where voters in NI can choose to change their terms then I would respect their decision. But the majority of elected representatives elected by Northern Ireland's voters are not calling for that. In neither Stormont nor Westminster are NI's elected representatives asking for this. Both sets of which were elected last year after the referendum.

    I will not treat my compatriots as pawns to be sacrificed to get what I want. They are my countrymen and they have their own rights and unless they choose to abrogate them then it is beyond the pail to strip them of their rights. They can choose that if they will. I will respect their choices either way. So should you! Their elected representatives in Westminster have been very vocal in demanding that Northern Ireland be treated no differently to Great Britain, that they do not want an Irish Sea border. So don't pretend this is for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #2822
    Incidentally while I have no respect for May as a politician, PM or negotiator she has (which I oppose) bent over backwards to try and reach a compromise. She has given away virtually everything to try and prevent a hard border in Northern Ireland. That despite the fact the threat of a hard border is a hollow one. Both sides have already said that even in a no deal scenario there would be no hard border imposed so we're arguing over a phantom menace.

    May has gone way beyond her mandate in order to reach a compromise but been spurned again and again. If avoiding a return to bombs was your first priority you could have ensured there was a compromise reached. But she has been rebuffed because the "integrity" of your union comes before preventing bombs. Fine that's your choice. You're entitled to put the integrity of your union before preventing bombs.

    So are we. It's time to say we will never sacrifice our union or break its integrity without that being the choice of our union's voters. We unilaterally won't impose a hard border, your choice if you do. We then exit and don't put up a border. Once you don't either we can move on to talking about the real issues and leave this one in the past where it belongs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #2823
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    Who do you think you are fooling? What we are really dealing with is the intransigence of an extremist minority in northern Ireland. The majority of the people of northern Ireland voted exactly for what the backstop entails: staying inside the single market and the customs union.
    Congratulations America

  4. #2824
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    Congratulations America

  5. #2825
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Who do you think you are fooling? What we are really dealing with is the intransigence of an extremist minority in northern Ireland. The majority of the people of northern Ireland voted exactly for what the backstop entails: staying inside the single market and the customs union.
    No they did not. They voted for the UK to do so.

    If they wanted to elect people backing what you're proposing they could. We should respect the decisions of NI and the people they have chosen to elect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #2826
    It takes an almighty amount of hubris to think you are entitled not just to permanently disenfranchise Northern Ireland but to speak for them too. The people who speak for Northern Ireland are those the Northern Irish have elected.

    May should consider saying we have gone as far as we can with the backstop but if the Northern Irish wish to go further that's their choice. Barnier can speak to the DUP and other relevant parties and if he can strike a deal with them we can move forwards. That is reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #2827
    I understand this latest spin is regarded as hot shit within the Brexit bubble, but in the real world it's nothing but horseshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post


    I never said anything about aliens. You're right we're not talking about sacrificing the lives of two dozen people. We are though talking about sacrificing the rights of nearly two million people.
    You chose to sacrifice the rights of those two million people--and tens of millions more--by leaving the EU and depriving them--largely against their will!--of their rights as EU citizens, eg. the right to freely move through and live/work in the entire EU. Clearly, stripping the residents of NI of their rights isn't regarded as a major problem by you or by the British govt.

    This isn't the eighteenth century, people have the right to elect politicians to shape their laws. But you want me to approve of sacrificing the rights of everyone in Ulster. You want all my compatriots to lose their right to hold those who make their laws to account. Because you believe that you are imperialistically more powerful and can subjugate smaller neighbours and we will have no choice but to sacrifice our compatriots. We will have no choice but to ignore the wishes of those elected by the population of Northern Ireland and disenfranchise them.

    That is real, that is what you are proposing. I truly wish that was me being absurd as it is an absurd suggestion, but it isn't. I deliberately chose sacrificing others as the analogy as that is literally what you are asking us to do. I have seen many Remainers and some Leavers too lamenting that the DUP are blocking a deal and saying they should be overridden. That we should sacrifice Northern Ireland for the greater good. No! No! No!
    This a spectacularly mendacious spin. Again, the English chose to sacrifice the rights of the people of NI. There was no majority in the NI assembly for even holding a referendum in the first place. The decision to hold a referendum was made without NI's support. A majority of the parties represented in the assembly opposed Brexit and campaigned against it, while a majority of NI's voters voted against leaving--the decision to leave was made without their support and indeed against their wishes. After the referendum, before the snap election, a majority was elected on the basis of seeking continued unrestricted access to the SM, or access at least equivalent to EEA countries outside the EU. Now, the empire is forcing NI to not only leave the EU but to do so in a manner that is the opposite of what the people of NI want, with the help of a party that represents a minority of NI's voters.

    I have absolutely no qualms with the population in Northern Ireland being free to consent to a change in its laws whereby it will be required to accept EU rules. That is their choice. That is not a choice they have made though.
    Because they have been denied that choice. They were forced, by the English, to make a choice they had no desire to make; the choice they made was nevertheless disregarded--again, by the English. Now, the English are wringing their hands and whining about freedom and consent when, by law, they have the authority to give NI the freedom to choose by putting the question of the backstop to a vote in NI--and, indeed, a moral obligation to do so, in the name of consent and with due regard to the spirit of devolution.

    That is not a choice you want them to have.
    Let's be clear: this is a choice the English and the DUP do not want NI to have. No matter how you spin it, that fact doesn't change.

    If we ratify this backstop that choice wouldn't have been made by them but rather for them.
    Just like the decision to hold the Brexit referendum and the subsequent decision to leave the EU. The difference is, the backstop would at least be consistent with the wishes of a majority of voters in NI, as expressed by the positions of a majority of the representatives elected to the assembly. But we see once again that consistency and fairness aren't highly valued by Little Englanders.

    The population in Northern Ireland elects their own MPs to Westminster and MLAs to Stormont. If the MLAs in Stormont choose to have a referendum where voters in NI can choose to change their terms then I would respect their decision. But the majority of elected representatives elected by Northern Ireland's voters are not calling for that. In neither Stormont nor Westminster are NI's elected representatives asking for this. Both sets of which were elected last year after the referendum.
    SF, SDLP, APNI and GP have all called for the govt. to ensure a withdrawal agreement with a backstop solution (that isn't time-limited) for the Irish border. The UUP, meanwhile, went to election calling for unrestricted access to SM.

    I will not treat my compatriots as pawns to be sacrificed to get what I want.
    You already have, and you still are. Please understand that your reality distortion field doesn't work outside your own head.

    Their elected representatives in Westminster have been very vocal in demanding that Northern Ireland be treated no differently to Great Britain, that they do not want an Irish Sea border. So don't pretend this is for them.
    Their elected representatives in NI were very vocal in their opposition to Brexit, have been very vocal in their demands for continued unrestricted access and continue to be vocal in supporting a backstop that isn't time-limited. So don't pretend you actually care about the opinions and rights of the people of NI.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #2828
    The English didn't do anything as much as you may spin it as that. England is not a nation within the EU, the United Kingdom is. The question on the ballot paper was whether the United Kingdom should leave in accordance with the Lisbon Treaty that all 28 member states have ratified. The UK voted to leave. NI is a part of the UK. No ifs or buts it isn't a devolved matter.

    If NI wants to change its status there are procedures to follow. They are not forced to remain a part of the UK but it is their choice to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #2829
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The English didn't do anything as much as you may spin it as that. England is not a nation within the EU, the United Kingdom is.
    Is England a country? Yes, England is a country, within which many people identify themselves as "English". England is the country within the UK that elects 80% of MPs. English MPs representing English parties were elected by English voters to deliver a referendum on the UK's--ie. also Northern Ireland's--EU membership. English voters voted to leave the EU, taking Northern Ireland with them. NI was not consulted before the decision to hold a referendum, or before the A50 notification, or before the setting down of red lines, or before the various twists and turns around the backstop issue. There are several institutions available for specifically consulting NI, but the English have chosen to disregard NI's wishes, once again treating it as one of its last colonies.

    The question on the ballot paper was whether the United Kingdom should leave in accordance with the Lisbon Treaty that all 28 member states have ratified. The UK voted to leave. NI is a part of the UK. No ifs or buts it isn't a devolved matter.
    Pathetic. Whether or not NI gets a decisive say on the Irish border issue is entirely up to the discretion of the English in Westminster. The English, with the help of a disgraced minority party in Stormont, have decided to not give NI any choice in the matter, just as they decided to disregard the interests of the same Northern Irish voters before holding the Brexit referendum--and have acted against their express wishes at every step since.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #2830
    Wrong again. There is no English Parliament there is a UK Parliament and all UK MPs got to vote on whether to hold a referendum or not. Holding a referendum was backed by 544 MPs (there were not 544 Tories).

    100% of NI MPs that voted on the 2015 referendum act backed it. None opposed it.

    If voters in NI elect to Stormont those who wish to change their status they are free to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #2831
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  12. #2832
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Wrong again. There is no English Parliament there is a UK Parliament and all UK MPs got to vote on whether to hold a referendum or not. Holding a referendum was backed by 544 MPs (there were not 544 Tories).
    I did not say there was an "English parliament". I referred to English MPs. 80% of MPs in in the UK's parliament represent English constituencies of predominantly English voters. Neither English MPs nor English Leave-voters gave any consideration to NI and its voters when calling for a referendum, triggering A50, fucking up the negotiations etc. They behaved for all practical purposes as if they are English, representing only the English--and, if it quacks like an English duck and fucks NI & Scotland like an English duck, it's probably an English duck. They ignored the Irish border issue for all practical purposes, and when they could no longer ignore it they tried to confuse the public with lies and dismissive (insincere) assurances.

    100% of NI MPs that voted on the 2015 referendum act backed it. None opposed it.
    I understand you think this is clever, but we both know it isn't.

    If voters in NI elect to Stormont those who wish to change their status they are free to.
    This shows very clearly that you Little Englanders do not care about NI. If you did, you would've given due regard to their opinions and their interests at every step leading up to this shitshow, instead of acting against their interests at every step and then forcing them to make another horrible choice. Again, I understand you think you're very clever and sneaky, but your lack of concern for NI is very transparent, and your sanctimonious grandstanding is therefore nothing but contemptible. Nobody's buying what you're selling.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  13. #2833
    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    Where were they radicalized?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #2834
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I did not say there was an "English parliament". I referred to English MPs. 80% of MPs in in the UK's parliament represent English constituencies of predominantly English voters. Neither English MPs nor English Leave-voters gave any consideration to NI and its voters when calling for a referendum, triggering A50, fucking up the negotiations etc. They behaved for all practical purposes as if they are English, representing only the English--and, if it quacks like an English duck and fucks NI & Scotland like an English duck, it's probably an English duck. They ignored the Irish border issue for all practical purposes, and when they could no longer ignore it they tried to confuse the public with lies and dismissive (insincere) assurances.
    Bullshit! UK MPs voted and we had a UK referendum. UK MPs in Wales, Northern Ireland and - yes - England all voted overwhelmingly in favour of holding the referendum. The only one of the four home nations MPs to vote against holding the referendum was Scotland where the SNP, still smarting over losing their own independence bid the year before, suddenly found independence referendums a bridge too far.
    I understand you think this is clever, but we both know it isn't.
    It's reality as it is, not as you fictionally imagine it. Northern Ireland's elected MPs voted in favour of holding the referendum for the UK as a whole. Why do you know better than the people elected to Parliament to represent Northern Ireland?
    This shows very clearly that you Little Englanders do not care about NI. If you did, you would've given due regard to their opinions and their interests at every step leading up to this shitshow, instead of acting against their interests at every step and then forcing them to make another horrible choice. Again, I understand you think you're very clever and sneaky, but your lack of concern for NI is very transparent, and your sanctimonious grandstanding is therefore nothing but contemptible. Nobody's buying what you're selling.
    I do care for NI and what its elected MPs have voted for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #2835
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    And we care for northern Ireland and what its people voted for.
    Congratulations America

  16. #2836
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    I think he's a bit confused on what exactly those MPs are for.

    Also, one might do well to remember that even if you are in power, in a democracy you're supposed to represent all of your constituents. Yes, even those who voted against you. This also means that just because you can do something it doesn't mean that you should do something.

    "My way or the highway" is usually the battlecry of autocrats. You'd do well to remember that.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #2837
    Your proposal is my way or the highway, I'm far more flexible but you don't want to negotiate and don't care what NI unionists that voted to leave the EU and want to be part of the UK want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #2838
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Your proposal is my way or the highway, I'm far more flexible but you don't want to negotiate and don't care what NI unionists that voted to leave the EU and want to be part of the UK want.
    Yes, it's our way or the highway. You're the junior party here, that's what you still don't seem to understand. Also, you are the ones who are leaving - as such, anything you want from us has to be met with concessions from you.

    There's no such thing as a farewell gift - particularly to someone who positions himself to be a (wannabe) competitor. How dumb do you think we are?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  19. #2839


    This turned out be bollocks.

    I remember the Scottish independence referendum and the SNP were all, like, "oh yes, and everyone in the world will bend over backwards to make Scottish independence work just give us what we want gratis, and we can just continue to use the pound and nothing everything will work exactly as we predict with no hiccups, and also oil prices will be high forever. it'll be great, you'll see." and then the no campaign was like, "uh, no, here's how the real world works", then some of the very same people went out to apply the very same fantasy logic during the Brexit referendum, except, critical difference here, Brexit is actually happening.

    So that's good.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  20. #2840
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Yes, it's our way or the highway. You're the junior party here, that's what you still don't seem to understand. Also, you are the ones who are leaving - as such, anything you want from us has to be met with concessions from you.

    There's no such thing as a farewell gift - particularly to someone who positions himself to be a (wannabe) competitor. How dumb do you think we are?
    Precisely my point in one. Concessions don't get to extend to stripping people of their basic human right to elect the government that shapes their laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #2841
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Precisely my point in one. Concessions don't get to extend to stripping people of their basic human right to elect the government that shapes their laws.
    Ah, I see, so we're back to "The EU always want over our heads!" even though you are known for things like the massive rebate you pressed out of the EU? The EU you were a party to? The EU where you had a veto right on anything major?

    Complete and utter bollocks you're spouting here.

    Have fun trying to negotiate with China or the US where you'll also be the junior party. It's always fun to see someone going: "But I don't get what I want! I'm leaving!" only to see the same person faceplanting when doing the thing he wanted.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  22. #2842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Ah, I see, so we're back to "The EU always want over our heads!" even though you are known for things like the massive rebate you pressed out of the EU? The EU you were a party to? The EU where you had a veto right on anything major?

    Complete and utter bollocks you're spouting here.

    Have fun trying to negotiate with China or the US where you'll also be the junior party. It's always fun to see someone going: "But I don't get what I want! I'm leaving!" only to see the same person faceplanting when doing the thing he wanted.
    The real fun is that I told him this truth for over a decade. The truth that he didn't want to hear and that made so-called pro-EU Brits hate me for being 'arrogant'.
    Congratulations America

  23. #2843
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    It's also interesting that they originally joined the EU because their economy had tanked. Thanks to the EU they got better.

    And now they're proceeding to drive themselves into the ground again.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #2844
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Ah, I see, so we're back to "The EU always want over our heads!" even though you are known for things like the massive rebate you pressed out of the EU? The EU you were a party to? The EU where you had a veto right on anything major?

    Complete and utter bollocks you're spouting here.

    Have fun trying to negotiate with China or the US where you'll also be the junior party. It's always fun to see someone going: "But I don't get what I want! I'm leaving!" only to see the same person faceplanting when doing the thing he wanted.
    Um WTF are you talking about? I'm talking about the proposed Irish backstop whereby the Northern Irish would become a colony of the EU, obliged to follow EU rules whether they want to or not but with no say in those rules. They would have no MEPs, no votes in Council, no say whatsoever. If they can once we've left still elect MEPs, have European Council votes etc and if they voluntarily choose to adopt that then I have no objection to the backstop.

    The only reason we got a fraction of OUR OWN money back which is what the rebate was, was because Thatcher was awkward and said no. Blair gave away most of our rebate in return for a vague pledge to reform CAP that came to nothing. Moron!
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    It's also interesting that they originally joined the EU because their economy had tanked. Thanks to the EU they got better.

    And now they're proceeding to drive themselves into the ground again.
    Socialism drove our economy into the ground. Thatcher made it better again. But as a great woman once said
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #2845
    A small aside: RB, do you consider the nordic countries to be socialist?
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
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  26. #2846
    I think they used to be moreso but have stepped away from it successfully. They also have advantages from being small and mineral rich.

    Swedes tax as a percentage of GDP ratio has tended down over the last 2 decades while ours has increased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #2847
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I think they used to be moreso but have stepped away from it successfully. They also have advantages from being small and mineral rich.
    Right. Finland is mineral rich and stepped away from socialism.

    You heard it here first, folks!
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #2848
    The Finnish model has some major improvements on ours like having no payroll taxes. Payroll taxes are absolutely nefarious in discouraging work and encouraging dodgy businesses to co-operate with employees in cash in hand thus circumventing the whole tax system for everyone involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #2849
    Unless you're using some weird definition, Finland has payroll taxes.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #2850
    I'd read it doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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