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Thread: UK Election 8th of June

  1. #601
    I believe in self-determination for the Northern Irish.

    I don't want them to be fucked over, but I'm prepared for it to happen if the Republic of Ireland and EU aren't prepared to negotiate. I'm not prepared to be blackmailed into fucking over the entire country to pacify one small part of it.

    The people of Northern Ireland can choose their own destiny. If they vote to stay in the UK as they are at the moment that's their choice. If they choose to vote for a border poll and merging with the Republic I'd respect that too. Either way its they who choose their own destiny, just like we should choose ours. And we've chosen to be independent and everything else must start from that premise first before anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #602
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    Do you also believe in gay conversion therapy as defended by the leader of your party?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  3. #603
    No.

    And its not my party. I am an independent swing voter at the minute, I not a member or supporter of any party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #604
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    Your vote for this party will mean you are voting for reactionaries. If you voted for them in the EU elections you are already complicit.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  5. #605
    Remainers are the reactionaries. The status quo ante of our politics they want to return to is our membership of the EU prior to the referendum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #606
    Truly it is progressive & revolutionary to want to return Little England to a time before the EU & the GFA
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #607
    It is progressive to want to bring in a post-EU future yes and the GFA and its spirit of mutual respect and mutual consent should be respected. The problem is one party attempting to abuse it and to make the other party a colony that is subject to laws and regulations they have no democratic way to change. That breaks the GFA and its spirit. The backstop is a violation of the GFA not its enforcement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #608
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    The Brexit party has MEPs that want to bring your country back to the actual dark ages. But you have proven over and over that you have sense nor sensibility when you cast your vote.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  9. #609
    Leave the EU and there will be zero British MEPs and zero Brexit party MEPs. Problem solved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #610
    What an inane take on the GFA. NI voted to stay in the EU, but Little Englanders are dragging them out of it. NI then voted against No Deal, but now that's precisely what you Faragians are threatening them with. Throughout the negotiations, the English have been increasingly contemptuous of NI's needs and concerns (just as you have been, with the difference that you stupidly continue to act like we're too dumb to see through your performance). No respect, no consent. Nobody's buying your BS, RB.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #611
    It's super progressive to bring about a post-democracy era. And just imagine how revolutionary and progressive it would be to reinstate slavery, capital punishment, prison sentences for sodomy etc. It would be hugely different from the status quo ante—progress!
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    What an inane take on the GFA. NI voted to stay in the EU, but Little Englanders are dragging them out of it. NI then voted against No Deal, but now that's precisely what you Faragians are threatening them with. Throughout the negotiations, the English have been increasingly contemptuous of NI's needs and concerns (just as you have been, with the difference that you stupidly continue to act like we're too dumb to see through your performance). No respect, no consent. Nobody's buying your BS, RB.
    Shows your smallmindedness.

    NI didn't vote to stay in the EU, there was no NI referendum. NI is part of the UK and the UK voted to leave. The UK including yes a majority of the English, but also a majority of the Welsh too, and a significant minority of Scots and Northern Irish. 44% of Northern Irish in fact, plus 38% of Scots. Had Scotland and NI voted completely to remain then the UK would be remaining. Of course NI has the right to choose to leave the UK if it wants to too, but they don't want to. If NI wants to remain in the EU they have a simple solution, they can leave the UK but they'd rather stick with us. That's democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I've been clear.


    Preferred choice: Trade deal so there is no hard border between any of them. If there's a trade deal there's no border between B and C or A and D. Where have I said we must have a hard border between A and D?

    I can't remember what your position on this is, but most Leavers do not want to be part of the customs union, hence - hard border.


    Tough choice: We put the border between B and C.


    If they want to negotiate as equals we can do so, I want a deal between the UK and the EU. That eliminates all borders. But if they're not willing to negotiate a deal then B and C is my choice. What's yours? How am I being illogical?

    You appear to have lost the thread of the conversation, so allow me to remind you. I said a *deal* without the backstop is not possible, not that *Brexit* is not possible without the backstop, since you were trying to blame the situation on May, rather geopolitical realities.


    Not just our territory. Theirs too. I would remain open to a deal with no backstop that would resolve the problems the second they're willing to talk on equal terms.

    What, you think a bunch of old provos are going to rise up against the Irish government because they took too hard a position against the British? Come on dude, they don't have a bunch of unionists living in territory they administer who are going to get annoyed at the border, it's us that have the republicans.


    It would definately hurt them economically, but it's not going to cause civil problems like it will in Northern Ireland.


    The GFA doesn't require it actually, EU law doesn't either (trade deals are an option under EU law) and we are leaving the Single Market. Next.

    The GFA has a provision that there be no security apparatus at the border, which will likely be interpreted to mean customs checks etc.


    EU law doesn't require the backstop per say but it (along with.. just the basic concept of what a free trade area is) does mean that the choice is either a border between NI and Ireland or a border between NI and the rest of the UK.


    Only if the Irish aren't willing to negotiate. The principle of the GFA was the the British and Irish would resolve issues diplomatically with a principle of consent. The backstop rides roughshot over that and the Irish are refusing to enter diplomatic negotiations. They're the ones violating the agreement not us. The second they want to drop the backstop and talk we can.

    You keep talking about negotiation, but you haven't actually said what concessions you'd give to the Irish to get them to shift their positions, yet you've already decreed that the backstop is completely unacceptable. Time and again, you've claimed issues with Brexit is that the other side needs to 'negotiate', but your idea of this seems to be the other side just unconditionally gives us what we want.


    Its not going badly. Its going fine. It hasn't happened yet and Remainers have sabotaged and betrayed it so far but we need to get rid of them and get on with what we voted for years ago.
    This is amazing. You actually sound like a member of komsomol earnestly explaining that there ARE NO problems in the Soviet Union, like no food shortages or anything, everything is going fine, Comrad Stalin is a genius and also all the problems in the Soviet union such as the food shortages are actually caused by counter-revolutionary traitors and western spies, and anyway a little breadline never hurt anyone.

    I can almost see the little red neckerchief.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Shows your smallmindedness.

    NI didn't vote to stay in the EU, there was no NI referendum. NI is part of the UK and the UK voted to leave. The UK including yes a majority of the English, but also a majority of the Welsh too, and a significant minority of Scots and Northern Irish. 44% of Northern Irish in fact, plus 38% of Scots. Had Scotland and NI voted completely to remain then the UK would be remaining. Of course NI has the right to choose to leave the UK if it wants to too, but they don't want to. If NI wants to remain in the EU they have a simple solution, they can leave the UK but they'd rather stick with us. That's democracy.
    It is remarkable how swiftly you shift back and forth between pretending to care about NI, pretending to care about the union with NI and... revealing your true stance, which is that NI can go get fucked.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I can't remember what your position on this is, but most Leavers do not want to be part of the customs union, hence - hard border.
    No customs union, just a trade deal.
    You appear to have lost the thread of the conversation, so allow me to remind you. I said a *deal* without the backstop is not possible, not that *Brexit* is not possible without the backstop, since you were trying to blame the situation on May, rather geopolitical realities.
    Of course a deal without a backstop is possible. The backstop only came about because of the shittiness of May.
    What, you think a bunch of old provos are going to rise up against the Irish government because they took too hard a position against the British? Come on dude, they don't have a bunch of unionists living in territory they administer who are going to get annoyed at the border, it's us that have the republicans.

    It would definately hurt them economically, but it's not going to cause civil problems like it will in Northern Ireland.
    So we deal with it.
    The GFA has a provision that there be no security apparatus at the border, which will likely be interpreted to mean customs checks etc.
    So don't put in place customs checks. We've already said that even in a no deal scenario we won't put in customs checks in NI. If the EU wants to put in customs checks that is their choice. Except the Irish have also said they won't put in customs checks even in a no deal scenario. Which is why this is total bullshit. The GFA is being abused to force us into a bad deal. Supposedly we can have no deal at all without customs checks and without a backstop, but we can't get a good deal without them and without a backstop? Bullshit.
    EU law doesn't require the backstop per say but it (along with.. just the basic concept of what a free trade area is) does mean that the choice is either a border between NI and Ireland or a border between NI and the rest of the UK.
    Or a free trade deal.
    You keep talking about negotiation, but you haven't actually said what concessions you'd give to the Irish to get them to shift their positions, yet you've already decreed that the backstop is completely unacceptable. Time and again, you've claimed issues with Brexit is that the other side needs to 'negotiate', but your idea of this seems to be the other side just unconditionally gives us what we want.
    A negotiation is we give them what they want, and they give us what we want. Not they take what they want and tell us we have no choice.

    What will we give them? Free trade, an open border, free movement, money. Is that not enough to start with?
    This is amazing. You actually sound like a member of komsomol earnestly explaining that there ARE NO problems in the Soviet Union, like no food shortages or anything, everything is going fine, Comrad Stalin is a genius and also all the problems in the Soviet union such as the food shortages are actually caused by counter-revolutionary traitors and western spies, and anyway a little breadline never hurt anyone.

    I can almost see the little red neckerchief.
    And who is Comrade Stalin in this scenario? Which leader of our country am I slavishly backing?

    As far as I can recall I've had nothing positive to say about Theresa May. Who in your scenario is surely the Tsar rather than Stalin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #616
    The one party that has put party before country is Labour. They are saying they want Brexit, they want a deal, they don't want no deal but are voting against the deal. They have acknowledged that the withdrawal agreement is the only agreement possible (since they don't think a renegotiation with Europe is possible), they have acknowledged that the withdrawal agreement and backstop need to be ratified for their own plan . . . but they're still voting against. Because they won't back a "Tory Brexit".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No customs union, just a trade deal.
    I like how you have to be super vague about everything, because otherwise your position would fall apart. "a trade deal" indeed.

    If you're not in the customs union, there's got to be a border, trade deal or not. This may surprise you, but the EU doesn't what any Tom, Dick or Harry we sign a trade deal with to use the UK as a back door into the EU's market, bypassing any regulations or tariffs the EU has.

    This is the entire point of the customs union. You keep the tariffs the same, the regulations the same and you don't need to check anything at the internal borders of the union. Meanwhile, the entire point of Brexit - supposedly - was that we would be able to go off and make our own trade deals without worrying about what the EU rules said. This two enterprises are self-evidently mutually contradictory, but your just like "oh if we get some kind of trade deal it will be fine and this incredibly complex issue will go away". You're living in a fantasy world. This is just willful denial at this point.

    Of course a deal without a backstop is possible. The backstop only came about because of the shittiness of May.
    This is factually incorrect. The EU insisted on the backstop. Their solution was was that only NI would be in the Backstop. It was May who suggested that the entire UK be kept in the backstop, rather than just Northern Ireland but she really had no choice in that because of the DUP. You could partly blame her for her disastrous election campaign which made her so dependent on the DUP in the first place, but given the nature of the Tory party and their strongly pro-unionist heritage, I doubt this would have ever been something she would have been in a position to accept even had she won a healthy majority.

    So we deal with it.
    Another great suggestion from Captain Vague.

    I see your position that Ireland will get the worst of it has now been abandoned. Hazir is right: you really are absolutely all over the place on this.

    So don't put in place customs checks. We've already said that even in a no deal scenario we won't put in customs checks in NI.
    This is a temporary measure while the UK panic negotiates something with the EU/Ireland (which will probably fail horribly):

    "We also recognise that there are challenges and risks for maintaining control of our borders, monitoring the flow of goods into the UK, and the challenge posed by organised criminals seeking to exploit any new system. That is why we are clear that this approach will only be strictly temporary."

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/eu-exit-...-deal-scenario

    Making this permanent would also make a mockery of 'take back control'. Like I'm sure every dickhead we make a trade deal with (assuming this every actually happens, which: LOL) will be super-chuffed about having a de facto one way trade deal with the entire EU because everything will just get shipped through Ireland/Nothern Ireland.

    If the EU wants to put in customs checks that is their choice. Except the Irish have also said they won't put in customs checks even in a no deal scenario.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...ario-1.3852163

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ecks-1.3848246

    Which is why this is total bullshit. The GFA is being abused to force us into a bad deal. Supposedly we can have no deal at all without customs checks and without a backstop, but we can't get a good deal without them and without a backstop? Bullshit.
    'Supposed' by you. No one else.

    Given that the backstop is supposed to be last resort, and according to the wisdom of Brexiters doing a trade deal with the EU is going to be super easy and resolved in afternoon, one wonders why the option of simply taking our chances with the backstop being invoked and hoping the negotiations go well isn't on the table. You fuckers who want a hard Brexit seem to be prepared to chance everything else: economic damage, medicine shortages, bloodshed and lives lost in Northern Ireland, recession on the hopes that the predictions about how bad a hard Brexit will be are overblown, yet risking the objectively far less severe consequences of having to invoke the backstop is completely unacceptable?

    A negotiation is we give them what they want, and they give us what we want. Not they take what they want and tell us we have no choice.
    In a negotiation, what Party A wants and what Party B wants is in conflict, or else there's no need to have a negotiation. So you have to compromise. You've said what you want the EU to compromise. Compromise is where both sides change their position to something less than their ideal which the other side will nevertheless accept. But you haven't said which aspect of the UK's position we should compromise in exchange, you've just expected the EU to unilaterally change their position.

    What will we give them? Free trade, an open border, free movement, money. Is that not enough to start with?
    No, that's what you end with? That's the trade part of the negotiations, yet to happen. The backstop is there if all of the above isn't secured in the negotiations. Which is quite likely judging by past performance.

    God, you're so muddled on this stuff. I think now you have held almost every possible position Brexit at one time or another. Why don't you go for a walk or something, sort your ideas out?

    And who is Comrade Stalin in this scenario? Which leader of our country am I slavishly backing?

    As far as I can recall I've had nothing positive to say about Theresa May. Who in your scenario is surely the Tsar rather than Stalin.
    Yes. This is definitely what the take away from that should have been. Well done.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  18. #618
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    FYI DUP doesn't represent a majority nor a plurality of the Northern Irish.
    This. And in general you shouldn't want to fuck over a part of your country - or are you fine with, say repressing minorities in general?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #619
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    The fun of course is that the Irish bring the EU and US Congress to the party. Which basically means that no matter how much the Tories try to get rid of the backstop, it will be what they will be living with as long as we deem it necessary.

    And no amount of special relationship between the White House and the Brexit party is going to change that cold hard fact.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Arrogant people who think that Brexiteers are stupid, that the decision to Brexit was stupid, and that it should be frustrated or overturned. They are the ones who legitimised the need for the Brexit Party to exist. If our decision continues to be frustrated the anger will only rise. If we're still members of the EU by the next General Election then that will be one ugly election. Theresa May negotiated a ludicrously soft Brexit with an outrageous backstop but that still wasn't enough for the Remainers in the Commons so we shall have to vote accordingly to express our disapproval.
    You could have posted this on the eve of the election 366 days ago and still been right.

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