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Thread: Moors murderer dies aged 79 - Should prisoners be allowed to kill themselves?

  1. #31
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    a) Psychopath was a clinical diagnosis in the 1980s, because Brady was diagnosed as one then. That's why he was force fed when he tried to go on hunger strike.
    b) Later in his life he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder.
    c) The Moors murders happened in the 1960s, not 2017, so the current hip terminology in the DSM prefers isn't relevant. It's what was a clinical diagnosis in 1966.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    You see, it goes back to the things you don't care about.
    I care about the fact he murdered and tortured small children and was never going to be set free under any circumstances ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #33
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    a) Psychopath was a clinical diagnosis in the 1980s, because Brady was diagnosed as one then. That's why he was force fed when he tried to go on hunger strike.
    b) Later in his life he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder.
    c) The Moors murders happened in the 1960s, not 2017, so the current hip terminology in the DSM prefers isn't relevant. It's what was a clinical diagnosis in 1966.
    But Rand is also talking in the abstract, about the things we should do NOW, about policy going forward.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #34
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    See point B. I guess that means he could run for office as a Republican senator?
    To ends unknown, by means unworthy, to answer wishes long dead and gone
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  5. #35
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    But Rand is also talking in the abstract, about the things we should do NOW, about policy going forward.
    We can quibble about definitions to the cows come home. Would Ian Brady - a man who tortured small children to death and recorded a childs screams for help as she died from her torture, a recording which was played to the jury - have been executed in a death penalty state in the USA? Or would he have avoided death row due to being "a psychopath" "a paranoid schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #36
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Do you support capital punishment?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #37
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No because I think mistakes could happen and it's wrong for the state to kill an innocent man. If there wasn't that risk then yes I would.

    If a guilty man wants to self-impose capital punishment then all power to him. It will be the only decent death he's inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #38
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Do you believe in assisted suicide for patients who are incapable of making a well-informed and rational decision for reasons of psychiatric illness or some other form of mental impairment, ie. who are not of sound mind?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #39
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    For people who aren't life in prison serial killers? No, I don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #40
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    For people who aren't life in prison serial killers? No, I don't.
    Are you saying murderers cannot be impaired to the point of not being able to make an informed and rational decision to die?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #41
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No, I'm saying I don't particularly care if life imprisoned murderers are. Especially if the reason is due to their own personality and not a temporary issue that will be fixed after treatment.

    Normal people about their daily lives have stuff to live for. Their life is worth something. Life imprisoned murderers have no future and are being held in a cage until they die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #42
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Whether or not you care about the inconsistencies in your views is irrelevant. If you do not support capital punishment and you do not support assisted suicide for people who are incapable of making an informed and rational decision to die then you should not be in favor of the government giving such a person a "cyanide pill" and letting them kill themselves. This is especially true if your justification for opposing capital punishment is that an innocent person may end up being killed. If that is the case, then an innocent person may also be driven to commit suicide, or be killed by a helpful cyanide-purveying govt. If you're actually trying to admit that you don't actually oppose capital punishment, that your principled opposition has numerous exceptions, that's another matter. But you'll have to make that explicitly clear rather than hinting at it as you have been doing in this thread.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  13. #43
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    @RandBlade

    So, basically you want them dead. But just not on your conscience.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  14. #44
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Whether or not you care about the inconsistencies in your views is irrelevant. If you do not support capital punishment and you do not support assisted suicide for people who are incapable of making an informed and rational decision to die then you should not be in favor of the government giving such a person a "cyanide pill" and letting them kill themselves. This is especially true if your justification for opposing capital punishment is that an innocent person may end up being killed. If that is the case, then an innocent person may also be driven to commit suicide, or be killed by a helpful cyanide-purveying govt. If you're actually trying to admit that you don't actually oppose capital punishment, that your principled opposition has numerous exceptions, that's another matter. But you'll have to make that explicitly clear rather than hinting at it as you have been doing in this thread.
    I don't have a principled opposition to the death penalty, I have a practical one. If the practicalities could be worked out I would be OK with the death penalty in principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #45
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    @RandBlade

    So, basically you want them dead. But just not on your conscience.
    Yeah. That's a fair summary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #46
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We can quibble about definitions to the cows come home. Would Ian Brady - a man who tortured small children to death and recorded a childs screams for help as she died from her torture, a recording which was played to the jury - have been executed in a death penalty state in the USA? Or would he have avoided death row due to being "a psychopath" "a paranoid schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder"?
    Still a lot of different jurisdictions, all with different rules regarding insanity. NPD would not keep a person from getting the death penalty in any of those states. It doesn't render someone non compos mentis. Schizophrenia can, so it depends on the state, how severe the schizophrenia was, both in general and as it related to specific episodes, and the specific lawyers, judges, and juries.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #47
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't have a principled opposition to the death penalty, I have a practical one. If the practicalities could be worked out I would be OK with the death penalty in principle.
    There are numerous prisoners in the UK who are certainly guilty of murder, at least as certainly guilty as Brady was. In their case, there is no "practical" reason to object to capital punishment, so I guess you may as well come out of the closet and abandon this charade of being against the death penalty when you clearly are not.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  18. #48
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yeah. That's a fair summary.
    Here's the thing, Rand. Prison suicides ARE on you, just as surely as executions are. They aren't isolated actions taken in a vacuum. The UK public explicitly created those conditions.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  19. #49
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    There are numerous prisoners in the UK who are certainly guilty of murder, at least as certainly guilty as Brady was. In their case, there is no "practical" reason to object to capital punishment, so I guess you may as well come out of the closet and abandon this charade of being against the death penalty when you clearly are not.
    I have held the same position for about 16 years when we started debating the death penalty when the Community Chat forum was still new on Infogrames: How can you devise a system that is ironclad 100% guaranteed to never execute an innocent man? That no mistake will ever be made? People that we were convinced in the past were certainly guilty have later on been revealed to have actually been innocent. You can't undo the death penalty. If you implement a life sentence then realise later on that a mistake was made then you can't turn back time and undo their stay in prison, but you can at least end someone's sentence and let them recover the rest of their life if you haven't already taken their life too.

    However life should mean life and not do some years and then be released. It should mean you will never under any circumstances whatsoever be released unless it can be shown a mistake was made. If the prisoner knows they were guilty, so knows they have no hope of ever being acquitted and so takes matters into their own hands that was their choice. The innocent can continue to protest their innocence.
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Here's the thing, Rand. Prison suicides ARE on you, just as surely as executions are. They aren't isolated actions taken in a vacuum. The UK public explicitly created those conditions.
    And I'm OK with that. Prisoners have limited free will but if they exercise that free will to terminate their stay on this earth then I don't object to that. I hold no principle opposition to suicide or euthanasia in general so I see no reason to extend one to prisoners who do us a favour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #50
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Except those apply to the mistakenly convicted just as surely as they apply to those whose convictions were accurate. One can, in fact, argue that the former are more likely to feel the despair and constricted opportunities and choices than those who were rightfully convicted. Unanswered hope is a rather crushing burden.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  21. #51
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    That could be true, but I don't see what can be done for that. Just need to try and keep as good an appeal system as possible to keep hope alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #52
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    Still you want them to be dead on the assumption that their sentence is justified. How is that different than condemning an innocent man to death?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    a) Psychopath was a clinical diagnosis in the 1980s, because Brady was diagnosed as one then. That's why he was force fed when he tried to go on hunger strike.
    b) Later in his life he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder.
    c) The Moors murders happened in the 1960s, not 2017, so the current hip terminology in the DSM prefers isn't relevant. It's what was a clinical diagnosis in 1966.
    Man we are too happy to pin any deviant behavior as psychosis that prevents someone from being culpable or capable of making decisions. That's bull shit.

  24. #54
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Still you want them to be dead on the assumption that their sentence is justified. How is that different than condemning an innocent man to death?
    Because one is an action we have taken against them that they are fighting against, and the other is them accepting their fate and choosing it themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #55
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    It's absurd for you to speak of "choice" when you've made it clear that you have no regard for a person's state of mind.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #56
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    That's not true, I said if we have a reason to believe this is a temporary ailment they are getting treated for then that would be different. What I don't care about is if it is their permanent personality themselves that is the issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #57
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Because one is an action we have taken against them that they are fighting against, and the other is them accepting their fate and choosing it themselves.
    No, no it's still an action you have taken against them. It's the second order of power rather than the first but it is still an exercise in the group's power. If you don't want it to be an action you take against them, you need to not be taking action against them. That means creating their constraints and mental position too.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #58
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Man we are too happy to pin any deviant behavior as psychosis that prevents someone from being culpable or capable of making decisions. That's bull shit.
    Did you come to this conclusion after reviewing Brady's case notes and the assessments of the the psychologists who diagnosed him?
    To ends unknown, by means unworthy, to answer wishes long dead and gone
    Old, empty promises, a just reward for the blind
    Belief makes work for idle minds
    The only dream that matters is the one you wake up from

  29. #59
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No probably just the fact that every dickhead has a disorder nowadays. How many children have "ADHD" instead of just being little shits?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Did you come to this conclusion after reviewing Brady's case notes and the assessments of the the psychologists who diagnosed him?
    Nah but we're basically at the point where anyone who kills anyone is 'mentally ill.'

    Addiction? Mental Illness.

    Confused about gender? Mental Illness.

    Attention wanders? Mental Illness.

    Very selfish? Mental Illness.

    The term 'mental illness' means pretty much nothing if you are getting to the point that more people have one than don't. You know what I call someone who likes to torture kids? Evil. Not insane. Evil.

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