Don't forget, they were probably a drain on public finances.Originally Posted by Hazir
Don't forget, they were probably a drain on public finances.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Sprinklers were just one example of several useful fire safety measures.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
The flats had just been refurbished at the cost of £120,000 each - more than enough to pay for other forms of cladding and then some. This was a state-paid refurbishment not private sector.
Hearing that the cladding may have been chosen due to climate change regulations as the lower carbon rather than lower cost option.
I call BS on that. Plastic is plastic. Don't try to pin that on climate change. It's your countries' shitty overall non-regulation and the non-enforcement of even the few ones left which is at fault.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Oh and these weren't cheap flats for the poor. Not with rent of £1712 per month and nobody on benefits allowed to apply. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-...ll-description
This 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom Flat is available to move in from 06 May, 2017.
The rent is £1,711.67 per month (£395.00 per week).
Property comes furnishedDeposit / Bond is £2,370.00Minimum tenancy is 12 MonthsMaximum number of tenants is 3
More details available upon enquiry.
Summary & Exclusions:
-*No DSS / Housing Benefit Applicants
- No Students
- No Pets, sorry
- No Smokers
- Not Suitable for Families / Children
- Bills not included
- No Parking Available
- No Garden Access
So council flats are not for lower income families?
Congratulations America
Unclear whether that applied to people on benefits who were given social housing years ago. The link in question describes a recent refurbished flat that isn't already being rented.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
To retrofit every high rise everywhere? Yes, probably. Sadly.
As you pointed out yourself, Rand, THIS one had JUST BEEN refurbished extensively. And it's the one that saw 30+ deaths. If you want to talk about every high rise everywhere, than i get to raise the number of wrongful death suits too. By an equivalent margin. So, say the total number of high rises "everywhere" is 3,000 (I expect this is an overestimate). That means the comparison is to 300,000+ wrongful death suits. Is retrofitting them all more expensive than THAT?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Sorry but your maths is flawed. You don't get to raise the number of wrongful deaths by an equivalent margin since not all high rises will turn into an inferno if they aren't retrofitted. You're more like talking 3,000 high rises vs 30+ deaths.
Your logic is like saying a car failure caused 4 wrongful fatalities, there are 263 million vehicles in America so the comparison is to 1 billion fatalities.
If you don't want the math expanded like that, maybe you shouldn't make fallacious expansions of your own? You tried to declare that the risk was just the losses from this one fire, for all high rises everywhere. In what way do you think that's different? It's not. I did the EXACT thing you did, to illustrate what you were doing.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
There was a combination of council flats and high price apartments. Mostly the former.
Hope is the denial of reality
Bullshit.
*shrug* You're entitled to your incorrect opinions. The matter of political opposition to strengthening or even maintaining fire safety regulations has been touched on by articles provided in the first page of the thread. But that doesn't interest me as much as your claims about the rents paid by Grenfell tenants living in council flats.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Last edited by BluntHorse; 05-18-2021 at 10:52 PM.
Ouch.In March 2014, the parliamentary group wrote: "Surely… when you already have credible evidence to justify updating… the guidance… which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?
"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"
After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40330789
Hope is the denial of reality
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/...uk-grant-visas
Unsurprisingly, and disgracefully, you may have to involve the media if you want to be allowed to attend a relative's funeral. We tried that when we wanted my relatives to visit Sweden to attend our wedding but it didn't work, their mismanagement of the case wasn't shameful enough.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Bullshit.
Posting links to far left extremist 'fighting FAKE news' websites doesn't make a claim true. Your claim isn't substantiated by the links either.
Moral of the story: both parties have contempt for the poor, though one pretends to care about them during election time.Promising to cut “red tape,” business-friendly politicians evidently judged that cost concerns outweighed the risks of allowing flammable materials to be used in facades. Builders in Britain were allowed to wrap residential apartment towers — perhaps several hundred of them — from top to bottom in highly flammable materials, a practice forbidden in the United States and many European countries...
No aluminum cladding made with pure polyethylene — the type used at Grenfell Tower — has ever passed the test, experts in the United States say. The aluminum sandwiching always failed in the heat of a fire, exposing the flammable filling. And the air gap between the cladding and the insulation could act as a chimney, intensifying the fire and sucking flames up the side of a building. Attempts to install nonflammable barriers at vertical and horizontal intervals were ineffective in practice.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/w...ndon-fire.html
Hope is the denial of reality
Y'all are the ones who seem to be rushing to heap the blame for this on the Conservative Party/Capitalism/Whatever Else Fits Your Blinders.You're right, clearly the only way to prevent this sort of tragedy is to lower taxes and fire schoolteachers
While a Labour government may not have averted this particular event, it's undeniable that the UK's conservative government has for many years taken a generally hostile approach to regulation in matters that include fire safety, at best encouraging "self-regulation" aka. "no regulation", at worst actively opposing regulation and neglecting necessary updates to existing regulation.
It was only three days ago we found out what even caused the fire. You don't seem to realize that your attitude is the problem. People need to stop trying to score points whenever the wind blows.
Not to mention that while the Tories (along with the Lib Dem for 5 years) have indeed been cutting unnecessary regulation, the have been zero (0, nada, nil) cuts to regulations on fire safety that would have affected this case. It is a rather morbid and twisted sickness that leads one to try and score party political points from a tragedy that is still ongoing.
Incidentally changes to regulations to require sprinklers and to ban cladding like this were both considered and rejected by the Labour government while in power too following a less serious but still significant fire in the late 90s. So this really isn't party political.
I love the weasely wording. Successive governments were told to add regulations (to get them to the same level as the US and the continent), ones that would almost certainly prevent a tragedy of this scale, and each of those governments refused to act.
Hope is the denial of reality
That was my point, they all chose not to. Not just the Tories, but the Lib Dems and Labour too.
Drove by Grenfell quite accidentally a few days ago on my way back from infiltrating anti-capitalists in the North. Our GPS had given us weird directions and suddenly we were there. Didn't take any photographs out of respect, but did stop to look. Photographs can only capture so much. It's a really stunning and haunting sight to behold.
That said, the next day in the papers was news on about Labour MPs and local(?) activists are trying to get the inquiry leader off the case because he's a straightwhitemale who isn't tasked with finding ways to condemn society at large. The politicization is sickening and indicative of what's wrong in many modern societies.
Not as sickening as your partisan compulsion to distort the truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...nse-to-tragedy
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Partisan? You're making my exact point. Those demands are silly and exactly the problem. EG-
This is the attitude that is infecting too many contemporary institutions. This is a fire investigation. What caused the fire. What can be done to prevent it from happening again. This group BMELawyers4Grenfell is not elected by anyone but get a mighty amount of press coverage and legitimization from the media.The Home Secretary to confirm in writing within 28 days that undocumented survivors are given full UK citizenship forthwith;
The ensure a properly diverse expert panel with suitable experience of equality, diversity and social welfare considerations sit alongside experts on fire, housing needs, health and safety, construction and so on.
And here I thought the main problem was 70 people getting killed in a horrific way due to gross negligence. But sure, a few activists making silly demands is the REAL problem.
Hope is the denial of reality
Hail Loki, King of Strawmen.
Dread, King of Faux Outrage.
Hope is the denial of reality
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