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Thread: Justine Diamond

  1. #31
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So approximately 95% of people known to have been killed by the Police were armed and approximately 5% were not? Approximately 3% were neither armed nor fleeing?

    I didn't say body cams being on were the norm. I said body cams being on should be the norm. Body cams being off should not be an option. The only time a body cam shouldn't be filming is if it is faulty or obstructed. It should only be off when an officer is eg going into the toilet [the only place CCTV would never normally be found] and I can't imagine many shootings occurring in bathrooms.
    Go through the dataset. A bit more than half are armed with a gun. Quite a few missing data points. Regardless, you find 29 unarmed people being gunned down by the police in half a year acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    And that fact right there 57 out of 559 is why change is needed. And you saying "waaah even if the body cam is on it doesn't matter" DOESN'T help. Society should get serious about auditing the police to ensure they are using body cams.

    What is also amusing in the race solely lens you view things Loki is that more white guys have been killed than black guys by the police, despite the fact that there are more homicides commuted blacks than those committed by whites. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf And of course an overwhelming number of men have been shot over women (though again the overwhelming number of murderers are men so this makes sense).
    Really? And how many of those 57 were convicted of a crime, Lewk? Jurors like you still vote not guilty.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #32
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    They can stop shooting people's dogs as well, Christ.

    Maybe training cops to immediately go to lethal force everytime somone drops a spoon or a window rattles or something wasn't the greatest idea.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Why would anyone be surprised by this? There are many more white people in the US than there are black people. It has no bearing on the reality of institutional racism in law enforcement. Have you literally erased your memory of every single discussion we've had on this subject and decided to start over from the beginning?
    Are you serious? Look at crime rates by race. Why would general population % matter at all? Statistically speaking certain races commit far more crime than what their population % would represent.

  4. #34
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    And statistically speaking they get shot far more than their crime rate would suggest as well.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    And statistically speaking they get shot far more than their crime rate would suggest as well.
    Depends on the stat you use. But if you use homicide rate by the race of individuals killed by police you'll find a very different picture. Homicide rate makes the most sense to use since it is the most violent of crimes and deadly threat is the reason the police are drawing and firing. Using *all* crimes (including non-violent crimes) makes little sense.

    The entire BLM name is a bit of a misnomer. Black Lives Matter (of course) but if it was simply their lives that mattered they would be calling on harsher sentencing and more police presence.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...-grapple-chart

    "In other words, black men were roughly “nine times more likely” to be murdered than white men, and the overwhelming majority of those murders were committed by other black men."

    In other words BLM should be renamed BLMWSBWLEO, ie Black Lives Matter When Shot by White Law Enforcement Officers. Because the grim parody of all this is if a black officer shoots a black man the media yawns and doesn't cover it.

  6. #36
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    Loki would be in favor the complete de-unionization of government employees at every level. Nearly every union seeks to avoid accountability and standards for their members. Teacher's unions tend to be the worst offender but police unions are also pulling that shit.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b00d9c3a1a6383

    What say you?

  7. #37
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Depends on the stat you use. But if you use homicide rate by the race of individuals killed by police you'll find a very different picture. Homicide rate makes the most sense to use since it is the most violent of crimes and deadly threat is the reason the police are drawing and firing. Using *all* crimes (including non-violent crimes) makes little sense.
    That presupposes people are less likely to use force to fend of the law when accused of "white collar" felonies which is a suspect assumption. But more importantly,besides noting that your cite doesn't include any support for the data it presents besides how many black men are murdered, it's also clearly referencing convictions for that side of things. It doesn't take much sussing out to notice the marked disparity in treatment of black people in the rest of the criminal justice process either.
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  8. #38
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Loki would be in favor the complete de-unionization of government employees at every level. Nearly every union seeks to avoid accountability and standards for their members. Teacher's unions tend to be the worst offender but police unions are also pulling that shit.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b00d9c3a1a6383

    What say you?
    Loki has made numerous posts in this very forum complaining about forced union membership...

    And you know what Lewk? Even if police unions weren't supporting these cops, you would. And that's enough to persuade them to continue with their reckless behavior, because they know that at least one juror will be someone like you.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    That presupposes people are less likely to use force to fend of the law when accused of "white collar" felonies which is a suspect assumption. But more importantly,besides noting that your cite doesn't include any support for the data it presents besides how many black men are murdered, it's also clearly referencing convictions for that side of things. It doesn't take much sussing out to notice the marked disparity in treatment of black people in the rest of the criminal justice process either.
    In other words you are going to put your fingers in your ear and go 'lalalalalaal' and continue the drum beat of 'white cops murdering black innocents!' despite evidence that the problem is likely larger than simply screaming 'RACISM.' Long before BLM I posted about overuse SWAT like police tactics (for non-violent crime). But nope - liberals gotta make it (and everything else) about race.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Loki has made numerous posts in this very forum complaining about forced union membership...

    And you know what Lewk? Even if police unions weren't supporting these cops, you would. And that's enough to persuade them to continue with their reckless behavior, because they know that at least one juror will be someone like you.
    Depends on the case. Reasonable doubt basically means you give the benefit of the doubt to the person who is on trial. Do you want a different standard? Speaking of which what are your thoughts on the Michael Brown case?

  11. #41
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What is also amusing in the race solely lens you view things Loki is that more white guys have been killed than black guys by the police, despite the fact that there are more homicides commuted blacks than those committed by whites. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf And of course an overwhelming number of men have been shot over women (though again the overwhelming number of murderers are men so this makes sense).
    Wow I did not know that 52.5% of murders are committed by blacks.

    Since the Police should only be killing killers, it would make sense if the Police are being objective that 52.5% of those they shoot are black but that's not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Why would anyone be surprised by this? There are many more white people in the US than there are black people. It has no bearing on the reality of institutional racism in law enforcement. Have you literally erased your memory of every single discussion we've had on this subject and decided to start over from the beginning?
    Who gives a flying fig what proportion of people there are? That would only matter if the Police were shooting entirely at random.

    Over 50% of the US population are female yet very few females get shot. Which makes sense since only 10% of murders are committed by females. The Police should be shooting killers in self-defence they should not be shooting at random surely, so it is proportion of killers that matters. If blacks make a majority of killers then they should make a majority of those shot by cops.

    The Police must be institutionally biased in favour of blacks.

    Or do you deny that the Police should be shooting killers and not at random?
    Or do you deny that blacks make a majority of killers?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
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  12. #42
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    That presupposes people are less likely to use force to fend of the law when accused of "white collar" felonies which is a suspect assumption. But more importantly,besides noting that your cite doesn't include any support for the data it presents besides how many black men are murdered, it's also clearly referencing convictions for that side of things. It doesn't take much sussing out to notice the marked disparity in treatment of black people in the rest of the criminal justice process either.
    Why is it a suspect assumption?

    The Police are authorised to shoot when it is is self-defence, not whenever they see anyone at random or anyone who is a suspect of a crime regardless of what type of crime it is. White collar suspects should be expected to be less violent than violent crime suspects, which means there is less need for self-defence. It is logical not suspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #43
    Guess we're moving away from the BLM thread?


    http://m.wmctv.com/wmctv/db_401748/c...tguid=AUdiWnEV

    Crazy enough (or not), not the first incident like this. Last time it was an old black lady they tried to plant drugs on. According to interviews the police are lying about this one too, surprise surprise.
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  14. #44
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Reasonable doubt basically means you give the benefit of the doubt to the person who is on trial.
    Some so-called liberals on this site seem keen to forget this very fundamental fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #45
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    In other words you are going to put your fingers in your ear and go 'lalalalalaal' and continue the drum beat of 'white cops murdering black innocents!' despite evidence that the problem is likely larger than simply screaming 'RACISM.' Long before BLM I posted about overuse SWAT like police tactics (for non-violent crime). But nope - liberals gotta make it (and everything else) about race.
    It's both.

    Here's how it works.

    1) American police are over militarised, non-trained in deescalation and generally trigger happy
    2) White Americans are terrified of black people, especially young black men
    3) Therefore, police in America are more likely to view black Americans, especially young black male Americans as a threat when they're no such thing and respond with lethal force. they're still capable of wildly overreacting to something and shooting white people too, but they're even more likely to do so with blacks

    It's an issue of police culture, police training which is exasperated by race issues in American.
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  16. #46
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40718997

    Looks like the woman slapped the back of the police car, which is what got her shot. Lewk should be happy. Inappropriate behavior punishable by death.
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  17. #47
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40718997

    Looks like the woman slapped the back of the police car, which is what got her shot. Lewk should be happy. Inappropriate behavior punishable by death.
    That's only counted as resisting arrest when someone of color does it.
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  18. #48
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade
    Who gives a flying fig what proportion of people there are? That would only matter if the Police were shooting entirely at random.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Why would general population % matter at all? Statistically speaking certain races commit far more crime than what their population % would represent.
    Lewk observed that police killed a greater number of white people, in absolute terms. In a discussion about bias in police shootings, this observation is meaningless without adjusting for relevant demographic variables such as relative population size.

    Let's say police kill 1 in 1000 people per year with no regard to race. If you have a country with 1000 000 white people and 1000 000 black people, you'll find that police kill 2 000 people per year: 1 000 white people and 1 000 black people. If you instead look at a country with 1 900 000 white people and 100 000 black people, you'll find that the police still kill 2 000 people per year, but that 1 900 of those people are white and 100 are black. Lewk then asks you if you find that surprising or if you think that police are biased against white people. Do you? Of course not, because you know that, even if the police are completely non-racist in the second scenario, they would still end up killing many more white people than black people. These absolute numbers would be meaningless to a discussion about unjustified bias in police shootings. They would perhaps be more relevant to the question of just how homicidal cops are. So, the question you both should have asked is: who gives a flying fig what the absolute numbers are, in a discussion about bias in police shootings? The answer is: no-one.

    Now let's say police kill 1 in 1 000 white people and 1 in 100 black people per year. If you have a country with 1000 000 white people and 1000 000 black people, you'll find that police kill 11 000 people per year: roughly 1000 white people and 10 000 black people. It would be clear that black people were being killed at a higher rate and you'd have to investigate different explanations, such as bias against black people, differences in crime rates, the homicidal tendencies of police, etc. If you instead had a country with 1 900 000 white people and 100 000 black people, you'd find that police kill 2 900 people: roughly 1 900 white people and only 1 000 black people. If you were to look at this second country through Lewk's eyes, focusing on absolute numbers, you'd be forced to conclude that police are racially biased against white people, or that white people are more likely to be violent criminals, and that cops aren't all that homicidal after all. This would lead us to focus on the wrong explanations and underestimate either the problem of racial bias against black people or criminality among black people--or both.

    Since the Police should only be killing killers, it would make sense if the Police are being objective that 52.5% of those they shoot are black but that's not true.

    Over 50% of the US population are female yet very few females get shot. Which makes sense since only 10% of murders are committed by females. The Police should be shooting killers in self-defence they should not be shooting at random surely, so it is proportion of killers that matters. If blacks make a majority of killers then they should make a majority of those shot by cops.

    [...]

    Or do you deny that blacks make a majority of killers?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Statistically speaking certain races commit far more crime than what their population % would represent.
    We know for a fact that police don't only kill murderers or even criminals. We also know--for a fact--that police are implicitly and explicitly biased against black people. We know this from experiments. We know this from interview studies. We have corroborated this with circumstantial evidence that shows bias in the occurrence of unjustified stops, unjustified searches, unjustified arrests, unjustified use of excessive--even lethal--force and unjustified charges. In every respect, black people in America are unfavorably treated by police, even when you account for relevant variables of specific encounters (nullifying the greater part of your arguments about differential crime rates which were already shaky due to other studies that have attempted to adjust for criminality).

    You guys are acting like no-one studied this issue before you came along and decided to pull opinions out of your behinds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    "In other words, black men were roughly “nine times more likely” to be murdered than white men, and the overwhelming majority of those murders were committed by other black men."
    Even without racial bias, most black murder victims would be killed by other black people, just as most white murder victims (over 80%) are killed by other white people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    In other words you are going to put your fingers in your ear and go 'lalalalalaal' and continue the drum beat of 'white cops murdering black innocents!' despite evidence that the problem is likely larger than simply screaming 'RACISM.'
    I'd take this more seriously if you hadn't made it abundantly clear that you do not believe that racial bias against black people is a significant problem, a view that is thoroughly repudiated by all available evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Reasonable doubt basically means you give the benefit of the doubt to the person who is on trial.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Some so-called liberals on this site seem keen to forget this very fundamental fact.
    In reality, as has been shown many times by scholars, "reasonable doubt" means a wide range of standards, standards that appear to be differentially applied based on defendants' race, socioeconomic status, occupation etc.
    Last edited by Aimless; 07-26-2017 at 09:58 PM.
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  19. #49
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Lewk observed that police killed a greater number of white people, in absolute terms. In a discussion about bias in police shootings, this observation is meaningless without adjusting for relevant demographic variables such as relative population size.
    Yes he did while specifically contrasting that with crime stats and looking at the relevant population: criminal killers ... blacks make up a majority.

    The rest of your post is redundant as you looked at general population rather than the murderous population. If we are to look at general population then racism is absolutely nothing compared to sexism. If we merely look at general population injustices we should be saying Male Lives Matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #50
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Perhaps you should reread the post focusing on the part that addresses that objection so that no one has to repeat themselves.
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  21. #51
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    You haven't addressed it. You've just said that other people are shot too. Yes mistakes happen but the Police are supposed to shoot in self defence against violent attackers who endanger themselves, their colleagues or the public. If the officer shoots someone who was genuinely endangering one of those then that is a good shoot that was meant to happen, if the person shot was not then it is a bad shoot.

    Therefore the population that matters is not the generic population where a female yoga instructor is as big a threat as an armed male gangbanger. The population that matters is the suspected violent offenders who endanger the public, the officers colleagues or the officer themselves. Most especially murderers.

    Waving this away doesn't address it nor does ranting about generic population numbers or biases in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #52
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    But... police officers don't just shoot violent offenders. That's the entire point. If they did, we'd not be having this thread.

    I am not following this line of reasoning at all.
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  23. #53
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    It's really not rocket science. If an officer thinks they're shooting a violent offender but they're not then they still shot at a perceived violent offender rather than entirely at random.

    So we need to contrast the proportions shot with the proportions who are violent offenders to see whether the shoots are representative of violent offenders or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #54
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's really not rocket science. If an officer thinks they're shooting a violent offender but they're not then they still shot at a perceived violent offender rather than entirely at random.

    So we need to contrast the proportions shot with the proportions who are violent offenders to see whether the shoots are representative of violent offenders or not.
    So what you're saying is that the police looks at aggregate data about violent crimes and uses it to shoot unarmed black people. Seems legit.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #55
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's really not rocket science. If an officer thinks they're shooting a violent offender but they're not then they still shot at a perceived violent offender rather than entirely at random.

    So we need to contrast the proportions shot with the proportions who are violent offenders to see whether the shoots are representative of violent offenders or not.
    Or maybe cops shouldn't shoot people just because they *think* they're violent.

    Crazy, but it just might work.
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  26. #56
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So what you're saying is that the police looks at aggregate data about violent crimes and uses it to shoot unarmed black people. Seems legit.
    No what I'm saying is they go on empirical evidence. If they're in a confrontation with an armed black gangbanger, or if they're not even near a white retired grandma - then which one is more likely to get shot? It's not simply the Police's fault they need to deal with more violent black criminals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Or maybe cops shouldn't shoot people just because they *think* they're violent.

    Crazy, but it just might work.
    Yes it is crazy. What do you propose, wait until they're killed themselves before opening fire?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #57
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    The very fact that you think those are the only two options tells me you have nothing of value to contribute to the topic.

    Also, stop pretending all black men getting into confrontations with police are "armed gangbangers".
    To ends unknown, by means unworthy, to answer wishes long dead and gone
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  28. #58
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Those are two very realistic options. Tragically if they don't pull the trigger when they *think* they are endangered then they will only be able to when they *know* that they are - by which point it could well be too late. Police officers are already by a high factor more likely to be killed on the job than random black people are to be killed in return. How many more do you think should die before they act?

    I never suggested that 'all black men getting into confrontations with police are "armed gangbangers"'. Many are. Using overall population figures is dishonest as it doesn't take them into account. You stop pretending that no black men getting into confrontations with police are "armed gangbangers".

    The facts show that race is not the only contributing factor to likelihood to get shot. Age, gender and criminality are bigger differentials than race. Which is why comparisons designed to show that blacks more likely to get shot ignored these other differentials by comparing young black men to young white men etc - yet it is only one of the differentials getting discussed. We don't have Male Lives Matter or Young Lives Matter or Criminals Lives Matter.

    Which is more likely to get shot by Police: A retired, black, law-abiding grandmother - or a young, white, male, skinhead gangster?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #59
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Those are two very realistic options. Tragically if they don't pull the trigger when they *think* they are endangered then they will only be able to when they *know* that they are - by which point it could well be too late.
    I am fascinated by how quickly you seem to think it's possible for a potentially violent suspect to produce a weapon, aim and fire it. Apparently, so quickly an officer with a weapon already drawn and pointed at the suspect can't risk taking the trouble to visually confirm the suspect is actually armed before pulling the trigger.

    Police officers are already by a high factor more likely to be killed on the job than random black people are to be killed in return.
    They aren't.

    I never suggested that 'all black men getting into confrontations with police are "armed gangbangers"'. Many are. Using overall population figures is dishonest as it doesn't take them into account. You stop pretending that no black men getting into confrontations with police are "armed gangbangers".
    Statistical analysis is not an acceptable basis for a decision to use lethal force.

    The facts show that race is not the only contributing factor to likelihood to get shot. Age, gender and criminality are bigger differentials than race. Which is why comparisons designed to show that blacks more likely to get shot ignored these other differentials by comparing young black men to young white men etc - yet it is only one of the differentials getting discussed. We don't have Male Lives Matter or Young Lives Matter or Criminals Lives Matter.

    Which is more likely to get shot by Police: A retired, black, law-abiding grandmother - or a young, white, male, skinhead gangster?
    None of the examples cited in this thread are young, skinheads or criminals. Just examples of the flaws of the U.S cops reconnaissance by fire approach, exasperated by ingrained racism in the U.S.
    To ends unknown, by means unworthy, to answer wishes long dead and gone
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  30. #60
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I am fascinated by how quickly you seem to think it's possible for a potentially violent suspect to produce a weapon, aim and fire it. Apparently, so quickly an officer with a weapon already drawn and pointed at the suspect can't risk taking the trouble to visually confirm the suspect is actually armed before pulling the trigger.
    I really don't think this is a valid argument. If a suspect is fleeing and they make a motion that makes it appear to the officer that they are producing a weapon, then they turn suddenly, there may not be a lot of time to make that decision, and there is every incentive to react as quickly as possible. Additionally, the suspects movements may be obscured leading to further confusion or doubt by the officer. While it is a good idea for officers to exercise restraint, it is also a good idea to recognize that police aren't infallible, that reality is mostly messy and imperfect, and hindsight is 20/20.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 07-28-2017 at 05:32 PM.

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