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Thread: Justine Diamond

  1. #61
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I really don't think this is a valid argument. If a suspect is fleeing and they make a motion that makes it appear to the officer that they are producing a weapon, then they turn suddenly, there may not be a lot of time to make that decision, and there is every incentive is to react as quickly as possible. Additionally, the suspects movements may be obscured leading to further confusion or doubt by the officer. While it is a good idea for officers to exercise restraint, it is also a good idea to recognize that police aren't infallible, that reality is mostly messy and imperfect, and hindsight is 20/20.
    And yet police in every other Western country somehow manage to not kill 1000 people (adjusted for population) each year.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #62
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And yet police in every other Western country somehow manage to not kill 1000 people (adjusted for population) each year.
    Is the insinuation here somehow that 1000 people every year are improperly killed by police? You realize that the vast number of police shootings are justifiable, right?

  3. #63
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Is the insinuation here somehow that 1000 people every year are improperly killed by police? You realize that the vast number of police shootings are justifiable, right?
    Just saying, but justifiable doesn't mean unavoidable. And with the current balance so heavily in favour of the police, it's not surprising people doubt the police's own investigation's outcome. I'm all in favour of giving police the benefit of the doubt, but that only works if people tryst the police.

    One thing that bugs me: police are supposed to be trained and better at assessing threat level, but it appears they are not particularly good at that. If police are routinely feeling they are under threat when they're not, maybe you should look at your threat assessment.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Is the insinuation here somehow that 1000 people every year are improperly killed by police? You realize that the vast number of police shootings are justifiable, right?
    No, they're not. The police rarely tries to diffuse the situation. In 400 cases a year, the person killed didn't have a gun. If you have multiple police officers confronting a single suspect, you should be able to take them down without killing them. Even when the suspect has a gun, the police should try much harder to get the person to put that gun down. You know, what police in every other Western country manage to do.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #65
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I really don't think this is a valid argument. If a suspect is fleeing and they make a motion that makes it appear to the officer that they are producing a weapon, then they turn suddenly, there may not be a lot of time to make that decision, and there is every incentive is to react as quickly as possible. Additionally, the suspects movements may be obscured leading to further confusion or doubt by the officer. While it is a good idea for officers to exercise restraint, it is also a good idea to recognize that police aren't infallible, that reality is mostly messy and imperfect, and hindsight is 20/20.
    Yes, there may be particular circumstances where a snap decision is necessary, but those are exceptions not the rule.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Just saying, but justifiable doesn't mean unavoidable. And with the current balance so heavily in favour of the police, it's not surprising people doubt the police's own investigation's outcome. I'm all in favour of giving police the benefit of the doubt, but that only works if people tryst the police.

    One thing that bugs me: police are supposed to be trained and better at assessing threat level, but it appears they are not particularly good at that. If police are routinely feeling they are under threat when they're not, maybe you should look at your threat assessment.
    I don't disagree with anything you posted, particularly, though I will note that while it is easy to point to instances of police misconduct, (I do with some regularity) it's also easy to fall into a trap of believing these anecdotal incidents are more widely representative then they really are. I don't believe most police officers who need to fire their weapon in the line of duty are not doing so indiscriminately, and without cause, and I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to support that claim either.

    That being said, I can and do understand why many do have trouble placing their trust in the police, and how that trust can be easily lost.

    No, they're not. The police rarely tries to diffuse the situation. In 400 cases a year, the person killed didn't have a gun. If you have multiple police officers confronting a single suspect, you should be able to take them down without killing them. Even when the suspect has a gun, the police should try much harder to get the person to put that gun down. You know, what police in every other Western country manage to do.
    And this assessment is based on what again? If someone comes at a police officer with a knife, is that justifiable? If an unarmed person is grappling with a police officer and they go for their gun, is that justifiable? This is a ridiculous claim to make, and I'd love to see evidence supporting that the majority of police involved shootings are unjustified.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 07-28-2017 at 08:45 PM.

  7. #67
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I don't disagree with anything you posted, particularly, though I will note that while it is easy to point to instances of police misconduct, (I do with some regularity) it's also easy to fall into a trap of believing these anecdotal incidents are more widely representative then they really are. I don't believe most police officers who need to fire their weapon in the line of duty are doing so indiscriminately, and without cause, and I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to support that claim either.
    The only statistic I need to know is that American police officers kill 1000 people per year, while comparable countries in Europe kill 1 (excluding terrorists).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #68
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The only statistic I need to know is that American police officers kill 1000 people per year, while comparable countries in Europe kill 1 (excluding terrorists).
    And you are a professor at a university?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    And you are a professor at a university?
    And you're a libertarian unconcerned with the state killing 1000 people a year, literally the most oppressive thing a government can do.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #70
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And you're a libertarian unconcerned with the state killing 1000 people a year, literally the most oppressive thing a government can do.
    Seeing as how I have been both very critical of police and police protocol, as well as concerned with both the number and types of shootings that seems like an inaccurate portrayal of my position.

    And it may shock you, but libertarians also recognize the need for the use of force, especially in self-defense.

  11. #71
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Seeing as how I have been both very critical of police and police protocol, as well as concerned with both the number and types of shootings that seems like an inaccurate portrayal of my position.

    And it may shock you, but libertarians also recognize the need for the use of force, especially in self-defense.
    The problem I have is that how much this might be true
    most police officers who need to fire their weapon in the line of duty are (not) doing so indiscriminately, and without cause,
    the number who are, at least when confronting certain population, are high that the people who need the right to use force in self-defense are the ones being shot by the cops.
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  12. #72
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    the number who are, at least when confronting certain population, are high that the people who need the right to use force in self-defense are the ones being shot by the cops.
    Provide some analytical evidence for that claim.

    There is a disturbing trend in this thread for people to dismiss such things as evidence, and statistics etc and to just go on gut feelings. Its like arguing with climate change deniers.
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  13. #73
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The only statistic I need to know is that American police officers kill 1000 people per year, while comparable countries in Europe kill 1 (excluding terrorists).
    That's all you need to know?

    How many American police officers get killed per year compared to comparable countries in Europe? Deal with that, the rest will follow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's all you need to know?

    How many American police officers get killed per year compared to comparable countries in Europe? Deal with that, the rest will follow.
    We went over this before. Your position is stupid and borderline racist.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    No, they're not. The police rarely tries to diffuse the situation. In 400 cases a year, the person killed didn't have a gun. If you have multiple police officers confronting a single suspect, you should be able to take them down without killing them. Even when the suspect has a gun, the police should try much harder to get the person to put that gun down. You know, what police in every other Western country manage to do.
    Holy shit do you know how fast you can get shot? If someone has a gun and you don't shoot and they decide to do it you have dead people. Any sort of non-compliance by someone with a gun needs to be dealt with immediately.

    And in several cases you have folks armed with something other than a gun attacking the police, knives for example. I want the police to shoot and kill the crazy knife wielder. That's totally appropriate.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Holy shit do you know how fast you can get shot? If someone has a gun and you don't shoot and they decide to do it you have dead people. Any sort of non-compliance by someone with a gun needs to be dealt with immediately.

    And in several cases you have folks armed with something other than a gun attacking the police, knives for example. I want the police to shoot and kill the crazy knife wielder. That's totally appropriate.
    This is because you don't believe in the sanctity of life, Lewk.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    This is because you don't believe in the sanctity of life, Lewk.
    Do you believe all life is equally valuable?

  18. #78
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    We went over this before. Your position is stupid and borderline racist.
    Bullshit.

    The issue is your cops operate in a stupidly violent nation encouraged by your second amendment. I don't see how believing the second amendment should be repealed is borderline racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #79
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    No, they're not. The police rarely tries to diffuse the situation. In 400 cases a year, the person killed didn't have a gun. If you have multiple police officers confronting a single suspect, you should be able to take them down without killing them. Even when the suspect has a gun, the police should try much harder to get the person to put that gun down. You know, what police in every other Western country manage to do.
    That's because they simply are not trained for non-lethal means. The training of US cops is atrocious. From what I remember, it's 6 months at the most. German training takes at least 2 years.
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  20. #80
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-u...-t-be-too-nice

    Trump addressing an audience of police in NY non-too subtly suggests officers 'rough up' suspects, to cheers and laughter from police audience.

    Almost like it's more than a few bad apples or something.
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  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-u...-t-be-too-nice

    Trump addressing an audience of police in NY non-too subtly suggests officers 'rough up' suspects, to cheers and laughter from police audience.

    Almost like it's more than a few bad apples or something.
    I was a big fan of that speech.

    ""They kidnap. They extort. They rape and they rob," Trump said. "They stomp on their victims. They beat them with clubs, they slash them with machetes, and they stab them with knives. They have transformed peaceful parks and beautiful quiet neighborhoods into bloodstained killing fields. They're animals.""

    I'm not a huge fan of a lot of Trump's moves but this is a good one. Dehumanizing criminals is an important step in the right direction.

  22. #82
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    I was a big fan of that speech.
    It's ok, we figured you would be.
    To ends unknown, by means unworthy, to answer wishes long dead and gone
    Old, empty promises, a just reward for the blind
    Belief makes work for idle minds
    The only dream that matters is the one you wake up from

  23. #83
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I was a big fan of that speech.

    ""They kidnap. They extort. They rape and they rob," Trump said. "They stomp on their victims. They beat them with clubs, they slash them with machetes, and they stab them with knives. They have transformed peaceful parks and beautiful quiet neighborhoods into bloodstained killing fields. They're animals.""

    I'm not a huge fan of a lot of Trump's moves but this is a good one. Dehumanizing criminals is an important step in the right direction.
    *shrug* It's no surprise that you don't understand the importance of professionalism. After all, you're basically a 13th century peasant.
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  24. #84
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I was a big fan of that speech.

    ""They kidnap. They extort. They rape and they rob," Trump said. "They stomp on their victims. They beat them with clubs, they slash them with machetes, and they stab them with knives. They have transformed peaceful parks and beautiful quiet neighborhoods into bloodstained killing fields. They're animals.""
    Hey now. All of the rest of it are documented offenses but I haven't heard of a single instance of the police slashing innocent people with machetes here in the US.
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  25. #85
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I was a big fan of that speech.

    ""They kidnap. They extort. They rape and they rob," Trump said. "They stomp on their victims. They beat them with clubs, they slash them with machetes, and they stab them with knives. They have transformed peaceful parks and beautiful quiet neighborhoods into bloodstained killing fields. They're animals.""

    I'm not a huge fan of a lot of Trump's moves but this is a good one. Dehumanizing criminals is an important step in the right direction.
    Didn't take you for a fan of constitutional protections.
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  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    They rape
    Only you'd be stupid enough to celebrate beating the accused while holding a fascination for false rape claims.
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  27. #87
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    And...Lewk derails a potentially interesting conversation again...guys, just ignore his ass.
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  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    a potentially interesting conversation

    You should have contributed then?
    I don't see much more that can be added seeing how this thread is just a copy of the BLM thread. You have Lewk being an idiot, Randblade thinking cops are justified in being racist/profiling adrenaline junkie trigger happy freaks because he thinks their job is dangerous and everyone else being varying levels of not so retarded.

    Until charges are filed there is nothing new to add.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 07-29-2017 at 10:39 PM.
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  29. #89
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Wow, then nevermind...sheesh.
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  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Only you'd be stupid enough to celebrate beating the accused while holding a fascination for false rape claims.
    Rape is a horrible crime and I fully support it being harshly punished. Sadly, very evil and twisted people use the rape accusation as a weapon and so society should be extremely vigilant against it.

    Last time I checked Trump didn't say "beat the accused" he sound don't be nice to them, don't hold their head as they get put in the cruiser. The part I particularly like is how he called the brutal gang that beat two teens to death 'animals.' That's important because the hopeful next step is to brand it a terrorist organization.

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