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Thread: Gypsies (aka Irish Travellers)

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Default Gypsies (aka Irish Travellers)

    There's been a multi-page discussion going on in the Justine Diamond thread that has inadvertently hijacked that thread. Probably more suitable for its own thread. Won't repeat everything, it's there if anyone wants to catch up, but looking to continue the discussion here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    No, basically you want them to become cookie cutter stereotypes of what you deem fitting.


    No wonder they reject that. "Hey, give up everything you know and conform to my ideals and maybe we'll treat you like a human being!"
    I don't respect any society that denies education to children and especially when it does so as a matter of policy to girls. Whether it be the Taliban or gypsies or any other social construct, children deserve and should be allowed to get an education. There are all sorts of things to know and ideals to conform to, but denying education is not one of them.

    Maybe if they were well educated then whatever you think to be "everything​" they know would not be all they know? Maybe they'd know more if they had a well-rounded education.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't respect any society that denies education to children and especially when it does so as a matter of policy to girls.
    So, basically you don't respect your own society you try to foist upon them. Gotcha.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    My own society denies education to children and does so as a matter of policy to girls?

    I'd like you to justify that claim. But if it were so, then no I wouldn't respect it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I would draw an analogy between gypsies and the "anti-vax movement".

    Sure denying your children education/vaccinations is a choice you can make. It's not a good choice though and no I will not agree with or respect that decision. I challenge anyone here to honestly say they do respect them.

    Does anyone here objectively and scientifically believe anti-vax is a good movement? Aimless as a medical professional do you have an opinion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    I think we can all agree some cultures are just inferior to others. Everyone on this board knows it is true but it violates their delicate liberal sensibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I think we can all agree some cultures are just inferior to others. Everyone on this board knows it is true but it violates their delicate liberal sensibilities.
    Interesting that 'we can all agree' but 'not admit it to be true' at the same time.

    Also, admitting that 'some cultures are just inferior' is no blank cheque to treat individual people as inferior.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Fully agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I think we can all agree some cultures are just inferior to others.
    No, we can't.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Maybe we really spoil the kids with the all fancy vaccinations and education we give to them. Who are we to determine whether vaccinating or educating children is better than not doing so?

    Afterall maybe an uneducated, unvaccinated child will grow up to be a gay adult. Who is to determine whether allowing that man to marry the man he loves is better or worse than stoning him to death?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    What was it you demanded in the other thread? Please provide your empirically demonstrated quantification showing that a culture is inferior to another. You racist jackass.
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    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    LF, I know there are some cultures I would not wanna live in cause the might wanna kill me?

    Or is culture the wrong word here?

    For example, how some...locales/regions???...treat men of our orientation is downright inferior to how other...whatevers we wanna call it...treat us. This can include parts of the USA too.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Well even without finding an empirical way of measuring whether stoning gays is better than allowing you to marry ...

    I chose education as one area to discuss. Empirically the standard definition of a decent basic education in the UK is at 16 getting "5 good GCSE's including Maths and English". GCSE's being the exams taken at 16 and good GCSE's defined as 5 GCSE's rated A* - C ... for context my university course had an entrance requirement of a minimum of 9 GCSE's rated A or above, so 5 A-C's isn't exactly stretching beyond basic capabilities.

    The national average across all communities is 63% achieving 5 A* - C GCSE's including Maths and English. Already I think not very good.
    The Irish Gypsy average is 8.4%

    According to my education 8.4% < 63%

    Can you provide any empirical evidence to demonstrate Gypsies get a better education?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    The problem with talking about the inferiority of certain cultures is that it's often used as an excuse to discriminate against people following those cultures, as you've aptly demonstrated on the other thread.
    Last edited by Loki; 08-09-2017 at 08:33 PM.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Aside from suggesting justifiable and minimal self-defence where it is justified, where have I supported discrimination?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    LF, I know there are some cultures I would not wanna live in cause the might wanna kill me?

    Or is culture the wrong word here?

    For example, how some...locales/regions???...treat men of our orientation is downright inferior to how other...whatevers we wanna call it...treat us. This can include parts of the USA too.
    Treating culture as distinct monoliths would be what is incorrect, as would be condemning the whole after singling out a few specific practices (which may indeed be deplorable) that you're really only aware of because you're NOT terribly familiar with the culture and so what really stands out are the extremes, something which get naturally minimized in those we are intimately familiar with because we're cognizant of all the other material in them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Well even without finding an empirical way of measuring whether stoning gays is better than allowing you to marry ...

    I chose education as one area to discuss.
    You can't pick and choose just one area. Your condemnation takes in the entire thing and so must your quantification. You racist jackass.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Treating culture as distinct monoliths would be what is incorrect, as would be condemning the whole after singling out a few specific practices (which may indeed be deplorable) that you're really only aware of because you're NOT terribly familiar with the culture and so what really stands out are the extremes, something which get naturally minimized in those we are intimately familiar with because we're cognizant of all the other material in them.
    Most of us are quite content to call out those in our own culture we disagree with to. In fact we're typically more prepared to.


    You can't pick and choose just one area. Your condemnation takes in the entire thing and so must your quantification.
    I can pick and choose as many areas as I choose. How do you quantify how many areas are appropriate?

    If you're not happy with education, why not go with crime rates - which is why gypsies were first brought up. Gypsies are quantifiably far more likely to be criminals than others. Gypsies make up 0.1% of the British population yet 5% of the prison population. No doubt some will complain that means there is bias in the judicial system etc but such bias surely does not make it so that gypsies are literally 50x more likely to be imprisoned than anyone else.

    Yet I'm a "racist jackass" for worrying about potential criminality. Bullshit!
    You racist jackass.
    You keep saying this like it is justified or means anything, which it is not. If patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, then calling someone names like 'racist jackass' is the last refuge of someone who is losing the argument.

    Since being male or female is assigned at birth, I asked you in the other thread if a woman is a "sexist jackass" if she is more alert around strange men than strange women. If a woman has been a victim of repeated attempted or actual abuse by men then is she still a "sexist jackass" in your eyes.

    If a woman said she was more alert around men would you be calling her a sexist jackass?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Most of us are quite content to call out those in our own culture we disagree with to. In fact we're typically more prepared to.
    But you don't declare your entire culture to be inferior. In fact you've just declared the opposite, that it is superior.

    I can pick and choose as many areas as I choose.
    I think you mean you can dismiss anything you want, as you did in the other thread. I'm simply holding you to the very high standard you've indicated you require for proof. Not my fault you seem to think it is suddenly incredibly unreasonable when it interferes with your own condemnations.
    You keep saying this like it is justified or means anything, which it is not. If patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, then calling someone names like 'racist jackass' is the last refuge of someone who is losing the argument.
    I did it at the start of the argument, because I believe in calling a spade a spade and you have said exactly the same thing yourself in the past. You said outright that you instantly judge someone the instant you hear the sound of their voice. If you don't like being called a racist jackass for that, maybe you shouldn't engage in the behavior of the racist jackass.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    But you don't declare your entire culture to be inferior. In fact you've just declared the opposite, that it is superior.
    Because it is on the criteria I have laid out. Oh and not just my culture, there are lots of cultures globally that believe in educating children etc

    If you want to quantify otherwise then lay out your argument like I have done.
    I think you mean you can dismiss anything you want, as you did in the other thread. I'm simply holding you to the very high standard you've indicated you require for proof. Not my fault you seem to think it is suddenly incredibly unreasonable when it interferes with your own condemnations.
    I met my requirement. I asked for some quantitative evidence to support the argument, none was forthcoming. You asked for some quantitative evidence to support my argument: some immediately was given in reply. I didn't consider it "incredibly unreasonable" to support my argument with quantitative evidence, I did so.

    Now you are more than welcome to either refute or reject my quantitative evidence but it is out there.
    I did it at the start of the argument, because I believe in calling a spade a spade and you have said exactly the same thing yourself in the past. You said outright that you instantly judge someone the instant you hear the sound of their voice. If you don't like being called a racist jackass for that, maybe you shouldn't engage in the behavior of the racist jackass.
    I did not say I "instantly judge someone" the instance I hear the sound of their voice. I said I become more alert when I do due to the increased risks. Perceived increased risks that are justified by not just over a decade of anecdotal experience but from all available empirical evidence. I'd be dumb not to be more alert when I am at more of a risk.

    I note your failure again to respond to my question about whether you'd call a woman a sexist jackass for an equivalent remark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Because it is on the criteria I have laid out. If you want to quantify otherwise then lay out your argument like I have done.
    I met my requirement. I asked for some quantitative evidence to support the argument, none was forthcoming. You asked for some quantitative evidence to support my argument: some immediately was given in reply. I didn't consider it "incredibly unreasonable" to support my argument with quantitative evidence, I did so.
    I think that's a pretty poorly reasoned argument. That's like me saying that I believe the United States has a superior culture to everyone else because it has such a high rate of gun ownership. It may be true, and I might even believe that to be an important metric for what constitutes a superior culture, but it's an incredibly narrow and singular focus to describe and rate something that is as encompassing as a culture.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 08-09-2017 at 10:57 PM.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Depends how strongly you value gun ownership surely?

    I have a sneaking suspicion that I value education more strongly than you value gun ownership, but if you value gun ownership as strongly as I value education then your argument would at least be reasoned.

    Not to forget that if you give that as a metric and I'm reading it then I can say "yes but I don't think gun ownership matters that much" and we can have a reasoned disagreement. If anyone here wants to say "yes but I don't think education matters that much" then fair enough. I have also added criminality to the mix in a later reply, between education and criminality I think we have two major strands of what it is reasonable to value in a culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
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    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Depends how strongly you value gun ownership surely?

    I have a sneaking suspicion that I value education more strongly than you value gun ownership, but if you value gun ownership as strongly as I value education then your argument would at least be reasoned.

    Not to forget that if you give that as a metric and I'm reading it then I can say "yes but I don't think gun ownership matters that much" and we can have a reasoned disagreement. If anyone here wants to say "yes but I don't think education matters that much" then fair enough. I have also added criminality to the mix in a later reply, between education and criminality I think we have two major strands of what it is reasonable to value in a culture.
    Then surely it makes more sense for your claim to be, "Culture X's perceived value of education, as gauged by participation in the public school system, is less than Culture Y's," and not a blanket, "Culture X is superior to Culture Y." Picking two reasonable strands of a fabric that contains hundreds, or thousands of strands is still fairly myopic.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 08-09-2017 at 11:14 PM.

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Because it is on the criteria I have laid out.
    Except your criteria isn't the least like proof of your claim. It doesn't do what you pretend it does.

    If you want to quantify otherwise then lay out your argument like I have done.
    You didn't do so in the other thread. You said they hadn't provided proof and offered up not one shred of what might actually constitute such. So again, I've fully met the standards you consider sufficient and you haven't met them at all. Obviously the Travellers simply don't take the test. Correlation doesn't offer causation after all, and you're being unreasonable in insisting on your interpretation of a statistical artifact. Because you're a racist jackass.

    I did not say I "instantly judge someone" the instance I hear the sound of their voice.
    You very clearly and explicitly did so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post

    Also, admitting that 'some cultures are just inferior' is no blank cheque to treat individual people as inferior.
    Correct. Which is why people should get things (college admission, scholarships, jobs etc) based solely on merit. Sadly liberal racists want to use race as part of the decision making process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    No, we can't.
    Oh so the anti-vaxxer sub culture is just as equal as the rest of America?

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Correct. Which is why people should get things (college admission, scholarships, jobs etc) based solely on merit. Sadly liberal racists want to use race as part of the decision making process.
    Society discriminates against African Americans at every stage before college and every stage after, and yet you're only concerned with the little bit in between.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Society discriminates against African Americans at every stage before college and every stage after, and yet you're only concerned with the little bit in between.
    Your bigotry of low expectations probably exacerbates whatever residual racism exists.

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Lewk, I'll take you and those like you seriously when you actually start supporting policies that provide an equal opportunity for all, not invoke that logic in the one place certain whites get discriminated against (I don't see you whining about legacies, which make up a much larger number of college students and are overwhelmingly white).
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Then surely it makes more sense for your claim to be, "Culture X's perceived value of education, as gauged by participation in the public school system, is less than Culture Y's," and not a blanket, "Culture X is superior to Culture Y." Picking two reasonable strands of a fabric that contains hundreds, or thousands of strands is still fairly myopic.
    Though a blanket "Culture X is worse than Culture Y" was someone else's words not mine. I said I was concerned about crime and education specifically.

    But anyway I weight crime and education strongly enough that I would value them more than other strands. If you don't value crime or education then I will respectfully disagree - I'm not insisting that my view is right or calling you names for taking an alternative viewpoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Except your criteria isn't the least like proof of your claim. It doesn't do what you pretend it does.
    It is to me, if you disagree then I will agree to disagree.
    You didn't do so in the other thread. You said they hadn't provided proof and offered up not one shred of what might actually constitute such. So again, I've fully met the standards you consider sufficient and you haven't met them at all. Obviously the Travellers simply don't take the test. Correlation doesn't offer causation after all, and you're being unreasonable in insisting on your interpretation of a statistical artifact.
    Seems like you're jumping to another thread, the discussion regarding "bunching" of drivers as the law intends. I asked for proof that driver behaviour wasn't responsible and there was none. In fact the authors themselves despite the assumption I disagreed with still found that most of the difference was attributable to driver behaviour.

    If you want to posit an alternative hypothesis you believe in as to why gypsies are 50x more likely to be in prison and over 90% likely to be uneducated then feel free.
    Because you're a racist jackass.
    No, I'm not. As demonstrated by your absolute refusal to engage in anything other than banal insults. Again: Would you call a woman who has previously been assaulted by a man and is subsequently more alert around strange men than strange women a sexist jackass?
    You very clearly and explicitly did so.
    Only if you're illiterate. I said I was concerned and more alert to the risks but treated him as normal. I didn't judge him guilty until after he had caused damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Lewk, I'll take you and those like you seriously when you actually start supporting policies that provide an equal opportunity for all, not invoke that logic in the one place certain whites get discriminated against (I don't see you whining about legacies, which make up a much larger number of college students and are overwhelmingly white).
    Color blind is the way to make things equal. Anything else is racism. Placement for job or admission should be done on merit and merit alone. Shouldn't matter what color, what orientation, what gender or who your mommy and daddy are. None of that should matter.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Has the English language undergone some weird reformation that encourages the repeated and arbitrary shifting back and forth of the definitions of the words "evidence" and "proof"?
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