https://deadconfederates.com/2010/07...burg-campaign/
Too much honor up in this mutha.
https://deadconfederates.com/2010/07...burg-campaign/
Too much honor up in this mutha.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
"It cannot be justified, or rationalized, or denied."Originally Posted by Aimless
Except it CAN be both justified and rationalized in its context, just as we do for other normally deplorable practices in war like the scorched earth policy Sherman ordered in his campaign in Georgia. It condemns Lee just as having been a slaveholder condemns him but if the mere fact that having held slaves at one point ISN'T enough to have someone marked as a villain to be condemned throughout history, to have all remembrances of their existence be extirpated than why is such necessary in HIS case? Because he was noteably capable and competent when the final effort to end that institution in the country was made?
You know, every now and then the Yasukuni Shrine makes the news and gets mentioned on here. I think the people who object to it, who hate the fact that prime ministers and other figures visit and make their respects, are off their rockers. I'm not seeing the difference here. Shall we insist that the memorial to Rommel in Heidenheim be removed? (actually, it might already be gone, I bring this one up because I recollect a local protest against it a few years ago)
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...zi-sympathiser
The president of the United States is now a neo-Nazi sympathiser
Yesterday was an absolute shit show.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
A. The statue glorifies Lee. I didn't say you were asking me to, so your statement is senseless.
B. I'm not lashing out at anyone, except your defense of honoring Lee with a public statue. He was a traitor and a key leader defending a culture deeply hurtful to a large segment of society, then and today, and he should not be glorified or honored with a statue in a public square. That's it.
C. The argument that Lee was an innocent caught up in defending his home under attack, and so should be honored with a public statue, is flat apologist stupid. You could get away with that defending a typical Confederate soldier, but not the one and only General Robert E. Lee. Try again, there has to be something valid out there you can support your position with.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
I'll give Trump this, looks like he found a way to finally unite the GOP. Taking their covert racism and making it very public appears to have crossed a line with them.
inb4: Lewk's tired BUT YOURE RACIST rant.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 08-16-2017 at 11:45 AM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I totally agree. I also think that this whole rehabilitation of the Confederacy that went on in the south simply stayed under the radar for so long because nobody paid notice. What was put in place with bad faith (revisionism of the role of Confederate leaders in the Civil War) in the 1920s can not be protected by a claim on good faith today.
Congratulations America
Nobody paid notice?
Yes sure, growing up in the 80s and 90s I never heard about how bad the Confederacy was.
The reason for them lasting this long, and for why so many nazis and racists still defend them is pretty much the same. Whites used to have the only voice. Now they are discovering that they're the only ones with a microphone.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Baltimore Removes Confederate Statues in Overnight Operation
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/u...=top-news&_r=0
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I am not much on the US history, but as far as I am aware he was talented general and certainly a person of note. He was a hero in the eyes of many, enough so that the monument was built (if the monument was commissioned by the general himself I stand corrected). As far as I see there are all the reasons to let the monument be, trying to judge people through the prism of todays morality centuries latter will lead you to destroy all monuments and history, and really fighting against a monument of someone long dead seems rather pathetic to me.
That is bullshit, judged through the prism of his time he was an abject traitor. The statue itself was an example of revisionism, trying to make a traitor into a war hero by focusing on his strategic qualities rather than the fact that he fought against his own country.
Congratulations America
Sensible. If you're going to do it, don't grandstand and just do it quickly.
You keep saying traitor like it is meaningful. The country was in civil war and he fought for his state. He along was given a pardon, along with other rebels, by President Johnson in 1868.
He resigned his post from the only legitimate army to join an illegal army. With this army he fought the duly elected government of his country. Today we would call him an insurgent or a terrorist. Back then you would call such a man a rebel and a traitor. Being pardoned does not take away the crime. It merely lifts the punishment.
Congratulations America
Time to start building those statues to Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin then.
Hope is the denial of reality
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...illing-to-come
Fox's Shep Smith: We couldn't find a Republican willing to come on and defend Trump
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
He hasn't been a fan of Trump for awhile now. Generally speaking though Republicans are probably right not to jump into the fray to defend Trump. Its particularly disappointing that Trump can't articulate himself better. This was a tremendous opportunity to look presidential and to call for an end to all violent political movements. A couple of days later he could look to champion passing really strict federal anti-rioting laws. Sigh.http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...illing-to-come
Fox's Shep Smith: We couldn't find a Republican willing to come on and defend Trump
So you're upset he isn't authoritarian enough for you? That's the problem?
I don't see why we should be building statues today to either of these people.Time to start building those statues to Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin then.
Although I would be totally for restoring some of the statues to Stalin he certainly had an impact on the history of our nation, and in my opinion they should never have been knocked down. Although communist statues are a bit of a special case since there were build by the Goverment in place in mass so defiantly mass produced statues can removed. Lenin can be kept to designate one way streets. But certainly a reasonable number of prominent statues preferably those that are more impressive should be kept.
Hitler, Mussolini - Again I don't see why we today should be building statues to these people, but if there were statues that are still standing today I do not think they would need to be knocked down.
It would be quite inconcievable indeed to put up statues of Hitler and Mussolini, both immediately after the war and today. I will give you that Stalin is a bit of an outlier, not so much because of what his regime meant in the USSR, but because of the personality cult that came with it. That makes the monuments a part of Russian history. And not a post-ante attempt to honor him. And as we both know the biggest honor (his place next to Lenin) he was stripped off a long long time ago. What remains of the statues doesn't merely glorify him, but also is a stark reminder of his totalitarian rule. As such they can't be compared to statues that were merely put in place to rehabilitate people who betrayed their country.
Congratulations America
Not sure what the traitor bit is supposed to mean, who and what did he betray? As far as I understand at the time it was widely accepted that union was voluntary, and supreme court ruling to the contrary came after the civil war. Also how do you even define a traitor in a civil war, the winner and the loser? The only one I could apply that term to is someone who stated out fighting for one side and switched midway.
He served in the US army and laid down his commission with the express intent to fight against that same army. The oath he swore as he took up his commission contains a promise to defend the United States against all enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC. Now, you may think that oaths don't matter very much, but back when he made it they sure as hell counted for something, and his behavior is what causes him to be a prime example of a traitor. But maybe you have an entirely different concept of oaths and honor and are supporting the erection of statues for Russian volunteers who fought for Hitler. If that is the case may I suggest Bronislaw Kaminski. I don't know what ruling you refer to, but IF the Supreme Court ruled that secession was illegal, that means the Law in the United States always was that secession was illegal. It doesn't make Lee less of a traitor, it even makes him a criminal.
The reason why he wasn't hanged after the Civil War mostly lies in the generous terms Grant offered for surrender. Which in short promised immunity for officers of the Confederate army if they would go back home and promised not to break the law. It was Grant's insistence that the US government should honor these terms that saved Lee in the end.
Congratulations America
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...nalysis-shows/
Photo of ‘Antifa’ man assaulting officer was doctored, analysis shows
and by doctored, they mean the picture isn't even from the US. So the two big stories Trump and his ilk leaned on, violence against officers and gathering without a permit, has already fallen apart.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
He's doing a fine job articulating himself. He doesn't actually disagree with the white supremacist movement, he doesn't want to discourage them, and he wants to keep their support. That's what he is articulating and that's what decent people find abhorrent. I realize it's hard for you to understand, but there is no miscommunication from Trump.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
I agree with this evaluation. He doesn't want to loose the support of what is basically an extremist section of the voters who will stick with him unless he would launch a frontal attack on them.
Congratulations America
Yeah, it's not like he's a difficult man to read or anything.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
No, no, it's really all about the #optics
#reasonableconservative
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
http://www.businessinsider.com/rober...numents-2017-8
“It’s often forgotten that Lee himself, after the Civil War, opposed monuments, specifically Confederate war monuments,” Jonathan Horn, a Lee biographer, told PBS.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Hazir should I then conclude that in all civil conflicts where rebels oppose the power in place, the rebel side are traitors? In particular those military personal that join the rebel side. If so its a totally clear point of view not necessarily one i share but is respectable if applied consistently to all civil conflicts.
Confederate Monuments were not built for historical reasons, they were constructed as a negative response to Reconstruction, in celebration of the rise of the Second KKK (and a movement known as the Invisible Empire), and a negative response to the Civil Rights Movement.
They were constructed in places that never were part of the Confederacy (like Ohio and Indiana), in white enclaves that wanted a symbol to keep out economically mobile black citizens.
Much of this born of the Lost Cause movement that has been romanticizing the Confederacy as plucky rebel under dogs who fought heroically for their way of life. The truth though is that the Confederacy was started by wealthy plantation owners so that they could maintain their slave work force. And to a large extent it was not fought by those families but by conscripted poor farmers, tradesmen and immigrants right off the ship.
You will often hear the terms Neo-Confederate and Neo-Nazi used interchangeably, that is because they both come from the same school of thought which classified the races in a hierarchical ladder of "fitness" which gained popularity in the 1890's and was used to convince people of the evolutionary superiority of the "white race".
It was during this time that the roots of Nazism started to form, and the Neo-Confederate Movement (KKK, Invisible Empire, etc) started to gain influence in the United States. While Nazis had few decades to really get a foothold, the Neo-Confederates quickly latched onto white resentment against economically successful minorities and were able to gain considerable political power. While those monuments started going up all over the South (and other places) the State Houses began passing Jim Crow laws and setting the stage for what came to be known as the Civil Rights Movement.
In conclusion, these monuments have nothing to do with the history of the Civil War, they are Totems of Racism. They have nothing to do with heritage, they are rallying points of White Supremacy. They have no place in our society if we want a culture of inclusion and equality.
oh but wait, our new york billionaire president wants to stick his foot in his mouth. again.
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"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
So while there were spikes in the two periods stated the graph also shows there were some built consistently every decade since the Civil War through to today.
Once you do start ripping out monuments it won't stop with Confederate ones.
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