Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Academic Uses Free Speech to Demand ACLU Stops Defending Free Speech

  1. #1

    Default Academic Uses Free Speech to Demand ACLU Stops Defending Free Speech

    Alt: Is the NYTimes Opinion Page trolling?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/o...ttesville.html

    The A.C.L.U. Needs to Rethink Free Speech
    By K-SUE PARK AUG. 17, 2017

    The American Civil Liberties Union has a long history of defending the First Amendment rights of groups on both the far left and the far right. This commitment led the organization to successfully sue the city of Charlottesville, Va., last week on behalf of a white supremacist rally organizer. The rally ended with a Nazi sympathizer plowing his car into a crowd, killing a counterprotester and injuring many.

    After the A.C.L.U. was excoriated for its stance, it responded that “preventing the government from controlling speech is absolutely necessary to the promotion of equality.” Of course that’s true. The hope is that by successfully defending hate groups, its legal victories will fortify free-speech rights across the board: A rising tide lifts all boats, as it goes.

    While admirable in theory, this approach implies that the country is on a level playing field, that at some point it overcame its history of racial discrimination to achieve a real democracy, the cornerstone of which is freedom of expression.

    I volunteered with the A.C.L.U. as a law student in 2011, and I respect much of its work. But it should rethink how it understands free speech. By insisting on a narrow reading of the First Amendment, the organization provides free legal support to hate-based causes. More troubling, the legal gains on which the A.C.L.U. rests its colorblind logic have never secured real freedom or even safety for all.

    For marginalized communities, the power of expression is impoverished for reasons that have little to do with the First Amendment. Numerous other factors in the public sphere chill their voices but amplify others.

    Most obviously, the power of speech remains proportional to wealth in this country, despite the growth of social media. When the Supreme Court did consider the impact of money on speech in Citizens United, it enabled corporations to translate wealth into direct political power. The A.C.L.U. wrongly supported this devastating ruling on First Amendment grounds.

    Other forms of structural discrimination and violence also restrict the exercise of speech, such as police intimidation of African-Americans and Latinos. These communities know that most of the systematic harassment and threats that stifle their ability to speak have always occurred privately and diffusely, and in ways that will never end in a lawsuit.

    A black kid who gets thrown in jail for possessing a small amount of marijuana will face consequences that will directly affect his ability to have a voice in public life. How does the A.C.L.U.’s conception of free speech address that?

    The A.C.L.U. has demonstrated that it knows how to think about other rights in a broader context. It vigorously defends the consideration of race in university admissions, for example, even as conservative challengers insist on a colorblind notion of the right to equal protection. When it wants to approach an issue with sensitivity toward context, the A.C.L.U. can distinguish between actual racism and spurious claims of “reverse racism.”

    The government’s power is not the only thing that can degrade freedom of expression, which Justice Benjamin Cardozo once described as “the matrix, the indispensable condition, of nearly every other form of freedom.” The question the organization should ask itself is: Could prioritizing First Amendment rights make the distribution of power in this country even more unequal and further silence the communities most burdened by histories of censorship?

    This is a vital question because a well-funded machinery ready to harass journalists and academics has arisen in the space beyond First Amendment litigation. If you challenge hateful speech, gird yourself for death threats and for your family to be harassed.

    Left-wing academics across the country face this kind of speech suppression, yet they do not benefit from a strong, uniform legal response. Several black professors have been threatened with lynching, shooting or rape for denouncing white supremacy.

    Government suppression takes more subtle forms, too. Some of the protesters at President Trump’s inauguration are facing felony riot charges and decades in prison. (The A.C.L.U. is defending only a handful of those 200-plus protesters.) States are considering laws that forgive motorists who drive into protesters. And police arrive with tanks and full weaponry at anti-racist protests but not at white supremacist rallies.

    The danger that communities face because of their speech isn’t equal. The A.C.L.U.’s decision to offer legal support to a right-wing cause, then a left-wing cause, won’t make it so. Rather, it perpetuates a misguided theory that all radical views are equal. And it fuels right-wing free-speech hypocrisy. Perhaps most painful, it also redistributes some of the substantial funds the organization has received to fight white supremacy toward defending that cause.

    The A.C.L.U. needs a more contextual, creative advocacy when it comes to how it defends the freedom of speech. The group should imagine a holistic picture of how speech rights are under attack right now, not focus on only First Amendment case law. It must research how new threats to speech are connected to one another and to right-wing power. Acknowledging how criminal laws, voting laws, immigration laws, education laws and laws governing corporations can also curb expression would help it develop better policy positions.

    Sometimes standing on the wrong side of history in defense of a cause you think is right is still just standing on the wrong side of history.

  2. #2
    Ridiculous nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #3
    ACLU will no longer defend hate groups that protest with firearms
    http://thehill.com/homenews/347053-a...rnd=1503027620
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #4
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    And that is as it should be: You have the right to assemble peacefully.

    Bringing guns and body armour is not a sign of peace.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #5
    Indeed. The second amendment is bad enough, but the idea of merging the first and second as a right to armed gatherings is . . . odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And that is as it should be: You have the right to assemble peacefully.

    Bringing guns and body armour is not a sign of peace.
    If you have the right to carry guns why would you have fewer rights when assembling? That's not the way things work. Loki believes you gain *more* rights when you protest and I think that's hogwash but it is kinda rare to see this board support fewer rights for protesters.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And that is as it should be: You have the right to assemble peacefully.

    Bringing guns and body armour is not a sign of peace.
    But bringing body armor, masks, bags of urine and clubs is fine? I don't necessarily disagree, but the guys with guns were actually two groups of US military veterans (one left-wing group, one right-wing group) that goes to protests to keep the peace. They actually worked together on this one, but after the Virginia police stopped neglecting the protests and ordered things cleared, the groups seem to have bowed-out.

  8. #8
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Any comments on a member of the SPL calling an actual free speech rally in Boston a bunch of Nazis and then the press running with it without actually investigating who was holding the rally...which causes 30k protesters to show up...
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  9. #9
    Link please.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #10

  11. #11
    BS (the violence at the protest was wildly inappropriate, but pretending that there was no alt-right presence is dishonest).

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-rally/537435/
    Last edited by Loki; 08-24-2017 at 10:41 PM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Did you watch any of the video of the rally?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Did you watch any of the video of the rally?
    What does that have to do with who was invited to talk and actively advertised? Yes, it was a small, diverse, and rather sad crowd. Which doesn't change the fact that it had a strong alt-right element.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #14
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    They disinvited a member because of his doucheness, and were very clear in their advertisements what what not going to happen.

    I noticed you say alt-right, but not Nazi or White Supremacist.

    There were also BLM banners Green Party folks, even down with Monsanto banners.

    It was a true free speech rally, not a neo nazi gathering. The press got it wrong and the Mayor got it wrong, which could have caused an incident. So, fake news or just lazy news?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  15. #15
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I noticed you say alt-right, but not Nazi or White Supremacist.
    Same thing.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Same thing.
    Meh it's a silly little game being played. Create the bogey man of the 'alt-right' then once it is solidly entrenched in the mindset of people try to label as many conservatives as possible with it. That's how you get people supporting free speech and liberty being accused of being fascists.

  18. #18
    So you're saying they don't exist? That neo-Nazis and other white supremacists don't associate themselves with people who embrace the term as a label for themselves? That they're just a fiction concocted by Soros-affiliated leftist cucks? Is that what you're trying to say? go ahead, look up the counter-arguments for useful idiots defenders of the faith on reddit, I'll wait.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #19
    I'd say call a spade a spade. If you're referring to Nazis then call them Nazis, if you're referring to white supremacists then call them right supremacists. Alt-right is a stupid term. It seems like there is a perverse reverse-Godwin going on here: in normal circumstances people leap to calling others Nazis when they're not but now we're referring to actual real life Nazis and we're looking for other terms to call them.

    They're Nazis. Despicable, evil Nazis. Call the scum for what they are.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-supremacists/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    They disinvited a member because of his doucheness, and were very clear in their advertisements what what not going to happen.

    I noticed you say alt-right, but not Nazi or White Supremacist.

    There were also BLM banners Green Party folks, even down with Monsanto banners.

    It was a true free speech rally, not a neo nazi gathering. The press got it wrong and the Mayor got it wrong, which could have caused an incident. So, fake news or just lazy news?
    To clarify, these are the parts of the article that I believe suggest your interpretation may be mistaken:

    The national director of the Ku Klux Klan has said members are expected to turn out for the event, due to start on Boston common at midday.

    [...]

    Several thousand people are expected at the rival “Fight Supremacy” rally. It was planned as a response to the Charlottesville unrest but, coming at the same time as the free speech rally, now raises the prospect of fresh clashes between the two sides.
    Ie. the rally was in response to the events in Charlottesville and there was every reason to believe, based on the information available at the time, that white supremacist groups would be present (which they were, afaict).
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  21. #21
    You're misreading the paragraph. The rival "Fight Supremacy" rally is the one that was planned as a response to the Charlottesville unrest. You also missed the fact that the rally organisers said that the KKK were not welcome at the rally:
    Mr Medlar said the roster of speakers included libertarians from both Left and Right but insisted there was no place for groups such as the KKK.

    “We don’t think the KKK is the type of group that will defend the first amendment rights of black people, so we don’t want them at our rally,” he said, referring to the part of the US constitution that guarantees free expression.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #22
    I'm not misreading the paragraph, my post was just ambiguous. I was explaining that the larger rally was in response to the events in Charlottesville and that they also had every reason to believe white supremacists would be in attendance regardless of what the smaller rally's organizer may have wished.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #23
    So if there is a potential that white supremacists may be in attendance despite a rally not being their rally and not being invited to speak then that is sufficient cause to justify trying to overwhelm and shut down someone else's rally?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Meh it's a silly little game being played. Create the bogey man of the 'alt-right' then once it is solidly entrenched in the mindset of people try to label as many conservatives as possible with it.
    Do you have to undergo some kind of procedure for self-awareness removal when you become a conservative or something?
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Do you have to undergo some kind of procedure for self-awareness removal when you become a conservative or something?
    What you're seeing in Lewk's posts over the past couple of years is the process whereby some people devolve into members of the alt right. There's an overlap, but it's correct to say that they are the same. Lewk's devolution accelerated once he started hanging out on r/The_Donald and consuming larger quantities of racist garbage on social media. His first, cautious steps--trolling a little here, posting racist memes there, liking fucked-up comments simply because they mock liberals, black people, Mexicans--gave him the confidence needed to say increasingly disgusting things on social media and slowly reinforce new, harmful patterns of thought and behavior. It's sad. It was sad already when he simply engaged in constant trolling and fapping to the misery of others, but now he's approaching that stage where he will no longer be able to lead a satisfying and happy life among normal humans. That's what happens when you immerse yourself in these hate-filled, thought-killing echo-chambers--you turn into a miserable little shit. Lewk's anti-liberal focus will inevitably cause him to embrace ever-more refined versions of white ethno-nationalist ideology and ultimately bring him to the point of blatant racism, at which point it will become difficult and less enjoyable for him to post articles here and he'll have to shift his focus to some other forum where he can openly engage in that kind of conversation. Somewhere along the line he'll try to read up on Tor, unless he's done so already.

    Nevertheless, I have hope. Just as people can fall victim to these ideologies, so too can they find a way to escape. There can be a life after hate
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    What you're seeing in Lewk's posts over the past couple of years is the process whereby some people devolve into members of the alt right. There's an overlap, but it's correct to say that they are the same. Lewk's devolution accelerated once he started hanging out on r/The_Donald and consuming larger quantities of racist garbage on social media. His first, cautious steps--trolling a little here, posting racist memes there, liking fucked-up comments simply because they mock liberals, black people, Mexicans--gave him the confidence needed to say increasingly disgusting things on social media and slowly reinforce new, harmful patterns of thought and behavior. It's sad. It was sad already when he simply engaged in constant trolling and fapping to the misery of others, but now he's approaching that stage where he will no longer be able to lead a satisfying and happy life among normal humans. That's what happens when you immerse yourself in these hate-filled, thought-killing echo-chambers--you turn into a miserable little shit. Lewk's anti-liberal focus will inevitably cause him to embrace ever-more refined versions of white ethno-nationalist ideology and ultimately bring him to the point of blatant racism, at which point it will become difficult and less enjoyable for him to post articles here and he'll have to shift his focus to some other forum where he can openly engage in that kind of conversation. Somewhere along the line he'll try to read up on Tor, unless he's done so already.

    Nevertheless, I have hope. Just as people can fall victim to these ideologies, so too can they find a way to escape. There can be a life after hate
    Only the most leftist of liberals could possibly suggest that advocating for fewer racist government policies and a desire for everyone to be judged 'by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin' is racist. I'm unaware of a single 'racist meme' I've posted but I'm looking forward to the logical gymnastics you'll do to try to show it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •