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Thread: Will Catalonia go it alone?

  1. #61
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Aimless you've gone very quiet on this point. What have you got against the Basques seeking their freedom democratically rather than violently?
    Failed bid for independence might reignite violence.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #62
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Like it did in Canada and Scotland?

    If they lose democratically then they lost fair and square.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #63
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    A) Canada and the UK are not your typical country with a secessionism problem.
    B) Why the obsession with having masses make irreversible decisions? The benefits of democracy involve the ability of the public to replace ineffective rulers. No one seriously believes the public is well-informed or that it holds strong and consistent views. Everyone knows you can get vastly different answers to the same general question depending on how you phrase that question and depending on when that question is asked. Frankly, I'm surprised Fuzzy is such a huge fan of self-determination by referendum considering how frequently he himself denounced the referenda system in California.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #64
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Like it did in Canada and Scotland?

    If they lose democratically then they lost fair and square.
    I have no idea if Canada and Scotland had prominent separatist terrorist organizations in modern history.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #65
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    A) Canada and the UK are not your typical country with a secessionism problem.
    No, they're typical democracies with a respect for people. Unlike Spain.
    B) Why the obsession with having masses make irreversible decisions? The benefits of democracy involve the ability of the public to replace ineffective rulers. No one seriously believes the public is well-informed or that it holds strong and consistent views. Everyone knows you can get vastly different answers to the same general question depending on how you phrase that question and depending on when that question is asked. Frankly, I'm surprised Fuzzy is such a huge fan of self-determination by referendum considering how frequently he himself denounced the referenda system in California.
    The benefits of democracy involve letting the people decide. If a decision is irreversible it absolutely should belong to the people. You're wrong that the public is not well-informed, an individual member of the public is not but the public as a whole are more well-informed than any individuals, it is known as the wisdom of crowds. Deciding what your nation is, is along the same lines as deciding who your rulers are. It is not an individual policy.

    The difference between major decisions like what country you have and California's system is that California drills down into individual policies. That lets people vote on a specific policy while ignoring the other side of the equation. General elections and major referenda like this don't allow that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #66
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Oh wow. The wisdom of the crowds.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #67
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Yes the wisdom of crowds. Democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #68
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    You do realize that the wisdom of the crowds is frequently not particularly wise and that democracy and the wisdom of crowds are not the same?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #69
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Rand's version of democracy is precisely the kind parliamentary democracy and checks & balances were created to avoid. Again, his loathing of liberal democracy isn't very surprising considering how much his tribe benefited from ditching it.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #70
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You do realize that the wisdom of the crowds is frequently not particularly wise and that democracy and the wisdom of crowds are not the same?
    You do realise that individuals aren't always wise either? You do realise that the scientific evidence is that crowds are wiser than individuals.

    Democracy is not the same thing no, democracy is letting the people decide and the people make the best choices because they are wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Rand's version of democracy is precisely the kind parliamentary democracy and checks & balances were created to avoid. Again, his loathing of liberal democracy isn't very surprising considering how much his tribe benefited from ditching it.
    I love liberal democracy. It is you that wants illiberal authoritarianism were the draconian state is sending the Police into printers and newspapers to intimidate them and stop the public having a say. Yeah so liberal
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #71
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You do realise that the scientific evidence is that crowds are wiser than individuals.
    No, evidence indicates that this is true of some things in some situations and untrue of other things in other situations. It depends on the type of question, the type of available information, the individuals being compared, the group being compared etc.

    Democracy is not the same thing no, democracy is letting the people decide and the people make the best choices because they are wise.
    No, that's nonsense. You're confusing the view that democracy is the best available way to make these decisions with the assumption that the decisions thus made are guaranteed to be "best" because they are "wise". Not so. Democracy is also the best way to let people make poor and unwise decisions for their society.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #72
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    No, evidence indicates that this is true of some things in some situations and untrue of other things in other situations. It depends on the type of question, the type of available information, the individuals being compared, the group being compared etc.
    It is true the vast majority of the time. Diverse groups trump experts as a rule of thumb.
    No, that's nonsense. You're confusing the view that democracy is the best available way to make these decisions with the assumption that the decisions thus made are guaranteed to be "best" because they are "wise". Not so. Democracy is also the best way to let people make poor and unwise decisions for their society.
    I never said they are guaranteed. It is the best method of making decisions though.

    I agree 100% that democracy is the best way to let people make poor and unwise decisions. If a poor or unwise decision is going to be made then it absolutely should be made by the public. Why should a poor or unwise decision be foisted on the public who haven't had a say?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #73
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Still claim the Spanish aren't being oppressive?

    They're now sending armed police in to raid printers, newspapers etc looking to halt the ballot. That is the action of a dictator.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #74
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Still claim the Spanish aren't being oppressive?

    They're now sending armed police in to raid printers, newspapers etc looking to halt the ballot. That is the action of a dictator.
    It is called enforcing the law. Funny how you're happy to justify violence against protesters, unless they're protesting for a nationalist cause.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #75
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    That being said, it may prove to be a counter-productive way to enforce the law.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  16. #76
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    They're not using unnecessary force. They're following the orders of the court. Ignoring the court for the sake of pragmatism risks sparking similar movements in other parts of Spain.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #77
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It is called enforcing the law. Funny how you're happy to justify violence against protesters, unless they're protesting for a nationalist cause.
    I'm not happy to justify violence against protestors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #78
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I just think this may end up being one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #79
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I just think this may end up being one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.
    Absolutely. Which is why nationalists regularly pull these kind of stunts. Every potential response plays into their hands.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #80
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Absolutely. Which is why nationalists regularly pull these kind of stunts. Every potential response plays into their hands.
    The best response is to let them hold it early on, before they pick up steam from the central government stomping on them. Let it get defeated at the polls before you drive a potential majority into supporting it.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  21. #81
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    The best response is to let them hold it early on, before they pick up steam from the central government stomping on them. Let it get defeated at the polls before you drive a potential majority into supporting it.
    That worked well with Brexit.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #82
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That worked well with Brexit.
    Oh. Right. The Brits have been kicking and screaming for decades, for longer than the Spanish have had their constitution and decentralized regional autonomies, and you think Brexit counts as a vote held early?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Oh. Right. The Brits have been kicking and screaming for decades, for longer than the Spanish have had their constitution and decentralized regional autonomies, and you think Brexit counts as a vote held early?
    They actually did have a previous vote, but the problem with Brexit wasn't just a groundswell of anti-EU feelings. It was that a series of governments over 3 decades falsely claimed EU responsibility for homespun problems. It's remarkable how other EU members don't have the problems that Brexit is supposed to solve. They're going to miss that scapegoat after they re out.

    Just for laughs you should follow British coverage of Brexit; on both sides of their debate they still manage to act as if it's all the mistake of 'Brussels'. Brexiteers telling after a pretty smart 'State of the Union' (I'm not going into the text itself but it is a strategic position paper) howl about how right they were to leave, and Remainers moan about their task not being made easier. As if we care any longer how our choices affect their internal politics.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  24. #84
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    They're not using unnecessary force. They're following the orders of the court. Ignoring the court for the sake of pragmatism risks sparking similar movements in other parts of Spain.
    The court ordered them to send armed cops into newspapers did it? And that makes it OK in your eyes?

    So if the federal courts in America said a vote authorised by the New York State congress was not valid then you'd be perfectly OK with armed cops raiding the New York Times?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Just for laughs you should follow British coverage of Brexit; on both sides of their debate they still manage to act as if it's all the mistake of 'Brussels'. Brexiteers telling after a pretty smart 'State of the Union' (I'm not going into the text itself but it is a strategic position paper) howl about how right they were to leave, and Remainers moan about their task not being made easier. As if we care any longer how our choices affect their internal politics.
    British newspapers are interested in how things affect Britain? Oh the horror.

    That's their job, to report on how things affect their audience not what obnoxious muppets like you care about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #85
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    No matey, what's funny is that you lot think we would or should care.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  26. #86
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Catalan ministers now being arrested.

    No doubt Loki will continue to be in denial that this is oppressive. If our government ordered the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon we'd be ostracised and quite rightly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #87
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    With one day left to go we have oppression reminiscent of Franco occurring across Spain. Well done to the Catalans brave enough to stand up to such oppression, nobody has a right to deny the people their voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #88
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    In the 21st century the people not the state are the ones who get to decide. Anyone who tries to subjugate the people is a dictator that should be opposed.

    For once I agree with Julian Assange, this is impressive and the Spanish state has no ability let alone right to stop the people from turning out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #89
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    democracy is letting the people decide and the people make the best choices because they are wise.
    The IQ of a crowd is usually equal to the IQ of the stupidest member, divided by the number of people in said crowd.

    Seriously, Rand, there's no such thing as "people are wise". Because if there was we wouldn't have had Goebbels, Mussolini or Trump.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  30. #90
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Please provide scientific evidence for that ridiculous claim because evidence disagrees with you. Evidence is that crowds are wiser than any individual let alone the stupidest member.

    People are not perfect even if they are wise but they're still wiser than trusting without checks any individual who could just as easily be a Goebbels, Mussolini or Trump.

    There's a reason why the likes of Goebbels were not keen on keeping free and fair democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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