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Thread: Will Catalonia go it alone?

  1. #121
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Don't be absurd if they'd been able to use their normal voting mechanism and procedures like local governments normally can then there would have been all that infrastructure in place. Spain got rid of all that then you want to complain it wasn't there?

    You are being a parody of a bad cop right now. Its like you're refusing a black man ID, then insisting on arresting him for having no ID (despite having no ID not being illegal) then beating up other blacks because they protested your first action.

    I never had you down as such a totalitarian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #122
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I see Loki you have no intention of actually rowing back and criticising Police state brutality. Bear that in mind next time you're criticising your own cops when you enthuse others beating up elderly unarmed voters for daring to have an opinion.

    Spanish government unveils next phase of totally unnecessary f**k-up
    THE Spanish government has announced further plans for totally ballsing up for no reason, it has been confirmed.

    Amid scenes of chaos and police violence, the Spanish government has said this is just the start of their plans to totally bollocks up this whole Catalan referendum thing.

    Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy said: “The most responsible and democratic thing to do when confronted with a region’s desire for independence is to declare it illegal, throw people in jail and start cracking skulls. That’s just democracy 101.

    “But after that, we’re thinking about shooting protesters with rubber bullets, attacking firefighters and telling them that they can’t have ‘El Clasico’ any more if they leave.

    “What? We’ve already done all those things?”

    “Well then yeah, we’ve done all we can to balls this situation up at this moment in time.”

    Catalan Josep Alcaniz Matoses added: “I actually wasn’t sure about us being independent from Spain.”

    “But seeing as they’ve said it’s illegal for me to even have a choice and the police are going to kick our heads in for even wanting to, they’re really making the decision for me.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #123
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Not wanting to spurn the chance to turn a crisis into a calamity the Spanish King has gone on TV not to criticise violence but instead to denounce the Catalan leaders.

    The Catalans have responded by saying they will go ahead with a UDI "within days".

    Madrid are acting like idiots trying to encourage violence. The Catalan voters democratically elected a government pledging to hold a referendum, just as the Scottish voters had done years earlier.

    If after the Scottish voters had elected an SNP government Cameron had refused a referendum and instead sent armed Police to crush the referendum, raid newspapers and attack unarmed voters, then Her Majesty the Queen had gone on TV to criticise the SNP leaders ... then I would be utterly ashamed of my government. There is no excuse for this violence and undemocratic behaviour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Not wanting to spurn the chance to turn a crisis into a calamity the Spanish King has gone on TV not to criticise violence but instead to denounce the Catalan leaders.

    The Catalans have responded by saying they will go ahead with a UDI "within days".

    Madrid are acting like idiots trying to encourage violence. The Catalan voters democratically elected a government pledging to hold a referendum, just as the Scottish voters had done years earlier.

    If after the Scottish voters had elected an SNP government Cameron had refused a referendum and instead sent armed Police to crush the referendum, raid newspapers and attack unarmed voters, then Her Majesty the Queen had gone on TV to criticise the SNP leaders ... then I would be utterly ashamed of my government. There is no excuse for this violence and undemocratic behaviour.
    Well, and then today there was an excuse; seems like large sections of Catalan society are against independence pushed through like the separatists tried to.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  5. #125
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    If only there was a way to count how many in a society do and don't want a change ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #126
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    That's like saying a majority of Brits want a hard and chaotic brexit with no deal.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #127
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Not true whatsoever. It's like saying the Brits and Scots both got a say in their future and the Spanish should stop being anti democratic heirs to Franco and give the Catalans a say.

    That doesn't preempt or predetermine what the outcome is. I suspect if a free and fair referendum had been allowed originally it would have been an even more emphatic no than the Scots delivered. But now we don't know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #128
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    A referendum on secession that does not also include a referendum on the process and the outcomes is not an accurate and informative indicator of the voters' preferences.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #129
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    So get involved and debate those issues, don't just send armed thugs to beat up people who try to have a say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #130
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So get involved and debate those issues, don't just send armed thugs to beat up people who try to have a say.
    Hold a fraudulent ballot instead (still no results released for individual precincts; the results from rural areas defy reason; rural stations had 0 election observers). While your top cop conspires to provoke violence in order to declare independence regardless of the results of said fraudulent vote (https://www.elespanol.com/espana/tri...429_0.amp.html).
    Last edited by Loki; 10-10-2017 at 03:43 AM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #131
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No. Have an organised, free and fair, monitored vote instead.

    Someone stopped that. Remind me, was it the Catalan leaders or the Spanish leaders? You're a total hypocrite
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #132
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Just how many laws do you want to break the second someone decided that their magical fairy of choice is nationalism instead of religion?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #133
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    How many peaceful non-violent protests when faced with someone sending armed Police to beat up elderly and female voters? I'd support as many as it takes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #134
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Clever play by Puidgemont calling for a de-escalation, calling for dialogue and "suspending" the process of independence rather than issuing a UDI. How will Madrid respond now?

    Having thrown armed thugs to beat up the elderly as Loki has endorsed will Madrid step back from the madness or sense weakness and pounce?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #135
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone's covered themselves in glory with this one, obviously Madrid comes off worse but the Catalan government are now moving towards independence with a highly dubious mandate, which is bullshit too.
    It's getting closer now, the fear that we have held off for so long
    It's getting closer now to where we know there can be no return
    It's makes no sense to me, what has been set in motion here today
    It makes no sense anymore, was it too little, too late? Or too much too fast?

  16. #136
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Best way to get out of this now is an internationally-recognised and audited ballot but Madrid won't go for that. And they've massively shot themselves in the foot with their bully boy tactics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #137
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    So it turns out you can't stop democracy forever. Even after the Police brutality of the referendum, the dictatorial political arrests of the separatist leaders etc the Catalan separatists have won a majority in the Catalonian Parliament in the election Rajoy called.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #138
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Only you, your fellow Brexiters, and other nationalists think democracy means making irreversible decisions on the basis of a bare majority. Except when the vote doesn't go your way. Then it's let's try again in a few years.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Only you, your fellow Brexiters, and other nationalists think democracy means making irreversible decisions on the basis of a bare majority. Except when the vote doesn't go your way. Then it's let's try again in a few years.
    Don't know much/care about whats going on in Spain but you seem to be super status quo guy. Under what circumstances should independence movements be considered good and/or can you provide a real example in today's world?

  20. #140
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Only you, your fellow Brexiters, and other nationalists think democracy means making irreversible decisions on the basis of a bare majority. Except when the vote doesn't go your way. Then it's let's try again in a few years.
    You are absolutely deluded and completely ignorant of European history if you think that is the case.

    Ireland 2001 rejected the irreversible Nice Treaty by an 8% margin. The Irish voters couldn't be ignored so were told let's try it again the following year.
    France 2005 rejected the irreversible European Constitution by a 10% margin. The French voters were ignored and the Constitution rebranded as the Lisbon Treaty was irreversibly ratified anyway.
    Netherlands 2005 rejected the irreversible European Constitution by a landslide 23% margin. The Dutch voters were ignored and the Constitution rebranded as the Lisbon Treaty was irreversibly ratified anyway.
    Ireland 2008 rejected the irreversible Lisbon Treaty by a 7% margin. The Irish voters couldn't be ignored, unlike the Dutch and French voters who'd already rejected this Treaty when it was called the Constitution, so were again told let's try it again the following year.

    The UK was promised a referendum on the European Constitution by all major political parties. Knowing we'd likely vote it down like the Dutch, French and Irish (but wouldn't be bullied into changing our minds again like the Irish) we were simply ignored like the Dutch and French, not given a choice and the irreversible Treaty was ratified. An irreversible change despite all parties promising not to do that at the prior election. This irreversible change ironically included the introduction of Article 50 and ultimately started the clock on Brexit, had this irreversible decision not happened without our consent we'd almost certainly not have Brexited.

    But apparently you don't count any of them as irreversible decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #141
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So it turns out you can't stop democracy forever. Even after the Police brutality of the referendum, the dictatorial political arrests of the separatist leaders etc the Catalan separatists have won a majority in the Catalonian Parliament in the election Rajoy called.
    Are you certain you don't mean "ochlocracy"? Direct democracy only really works with simple stuff where the outcome is easily definable and measurable.

    For highly complex matters involving a huge amount of people and uncertain outcomes, direct democracy is a bad idea as it will always be subject to populism. Trumpism is a very fine example of this.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #142
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Trump is an elected representative and not direct democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #143
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Only you, your fellow Brexiters, and other nationalists think democracy means making irreversible decisions on the basis of a bare majority. Except when the vote doesn't go your way. Then it's let's try again in a few years.
    So tell me, Loki, just how small does a minority have to be before it ceases to be able to dictate its own choice in self-determination over the majority? I know it's alien to your sensibilities and those of all the other social-progressives on this board but "nationalist" is not a dirty word, anymore than socialism is.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  24. #144
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    So tell me, Loki, just how small does a minority have to be before it ceases to be able to dictate its own choice in self-determination over the majority? I know it's alien to your sensibilities and those of all the other social-progressives on this board but "nationalist" is not a dirty word, anymore than socialism is.
    Assuming we're talking about democracies: the minority has to go through proper constitutional and political channels. If the answer is no, that's simply too bad. You don't have the right to destroy people's lives just because you want to be ruled by others with the same complexion as yourself.

    I beg to differ on the nationalist front. A nationalist is a racist that substitutes ethnicity for race.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #145
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Catalonians, like Scots, have the same complexion as the rest of their country. Nationality != Ethnicity
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #146
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Catalonians, like Scots, have the same complexion as the rest of their country. Nationality != Ethnicity
    Nationality is used in three different ways: to designate someone's ethnicity, their country of birth, and the country of their citizenship. Scots don't have a nationality according to the third definition (they're UK citizens). And the first two are either explicitly ethnic or correlate very strongly with ethnicity.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #147
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Trump is an elected representative and not direct democracy.
    You're great at ignoring what I actually said regarding populism. Imagine how much worse the situation in the US would become with direct democracy.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  28. #148
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    You're great at ignoring what I actually said regarding populism. Imagine how much worse the situation in the US would become with direct democracy.
    You said direct democracy is subject to populism. Indirect democracy is too - cf. President Trump
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You said direct democracy is subject to populism. Indirect democracy is too - cf. President Trump
    In fairness Hillary Clinton was an awful candidate. Political baggage for decades, high negatives and campaigned terribly with some key strategic mistakes.

  30. #150
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Assuming we're talking about democracies: the minority has to go through proper constitutional and political channels.
    No they don't, not according to you. They just have to be the beneficiaries of the status quo. Was Catalania incorporated into Spain via democracy? No. Was leaving an option actually available for consideration in the reform away from Francoist Spain? No. The minority didn't go through proper constitutional and political channels, the status was established in fait accompli that had nothing whatsoever to do with democracy some centuries ago, and you accord it with reverence because it's the status quo with no actual regard for what constitutional or political channels established it. And you're oddly split. You claim to want to protect the minority, but that only counts when you look at Catalonia alone. When you look at Spain as a whole you're suddenly fine with authoritartian actions like jailing minority representatives for organizing referendums.

    If the answer is no, that's simply too bad. You don't have the right to destroy people's lives just because you want to be ruled by others with the same complexion as yourself.
    They all share the same complexion. By the way, you left off the most historically relevant way to use nationality, one that actually applies to Catalonia, unlike ANY of your references to ethnicity: the linguistic meaning. Catalonia has its own distinct language. It doesn't have its own ethnicity, but it has its own language.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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