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Thread: Will Kurdistan go it alone?

  1. #1
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Default Will Kurdistan go it alone?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41382494

    Ballots not bullets. Let's hope it spreads

    The Kurds deserve their own state for the amount they have suffered under successive dictators and for the fight back against ISIS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #2
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    If anyone deserves independence, it's the Kurds. But I'm not very optimistic about this being a peaceful process.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Stronger case than for Catalonia, but note the strong opposition from all sides including the US.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  4. #4
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Verbal opposition is the least of their problems. There's a real chance of an invasion by Iran, Turkey, or Shiite militias.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    92% vote for secession. Good on the Kurds

    If it comes to conflict I'd rather side with the Kurds than Erdogan or the Iranians etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #6
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Oh and West Papua.

    Petition not sedition.

    https://newint.org/blog/2017/09/27/u...-papua-freedom
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #7
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    92% vote for secession. Good on the Kurds

    If it comes to conflict I'd rather side with the Kurds than Erdogan or the Iranians etc
    Agreed. While they aren't all angels they have been a lot better than almost any other regional group in the area.

  9. #9
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    How's that Kurdish bid for independence going?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    About as expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #11
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Maybe people should stop encouraging suicide missions.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Indeed anyone encouraging suicide bombings should stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Starting like the independent referendum was a power-play by one Kurdish faction. The other sold it out on the cheap.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #14
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Yeah why should voters or people matter. All that matters is power and today's dictator must be for life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #15
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    If the people (which people?) want something, it must be a good idea! That very idea is anathema to liberalism, which you seem to have completely abandoned around the time of Brexit.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    How is it anathema?

    I have always held a liberal view that people should be free to decide their own future, not have it dictated to them by whoever currently has force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #17
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    How is it anathema?

    I have always held a liberal view that people should be free to decide their own future, not have it dictated to them by whoever currently has force.
    Seriously? Liberalism is about minority protections and checks and balances. Liberals have warned about majoritarianism/mob rule from the very beginning.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Guys the definition of liberalism has changed. Words do that you know.

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Seriously? Liberalism is about minority protections and checks and balances. Liberals have warned about majoritarianism/mob rule from the very beginning.
    Well, is what's going on over there actually better than majoritarianism/mob rule in the first place? Because if factions are doing things like selling their opponents out to Turks, Persians, etc. than I don't think you can consider the status quo an improvement.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #20
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Seriously? Liberalism is about minority protections and checks and balances. Liberals have warned about majoritarianism/mob rule from the very beginning.
    Indeed and the Kurds are the minority that are being maltreated by the majority.

    Liberalism != an opposition to democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #21
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    I don't know if christian and other minorities in Kurdish majority areas are all that convinced about the Kurds being better rulers than the old batch.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  22. #22
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I don't know if christian and other minorities in Kurdish majority areas are all that convinced about the Kurds being better rulers than the old batch.
    I doubt they are, but they probably aren't going to be much worse for those minorities either.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  23. #23
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    May i point out the Kurdish role in the extermination of the Ottoman Armenians ?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  24. #24
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I was not immediately aware of that. A quick examination indicates participation was a mixed bag and that Kurds have been acknowledging and apologizing for the genocide. However, forgive me if I'm wrong but were the other locals who are currently in power less involved in that? Because I'm pretty sure they participated as well.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  25. #25
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    A) No one knows how fair the referendum was.
    B) The Kurds tried to secede with land that clearly does not have a Kurdish majority, but does have a lot of oil.
    C) The Kurds have committed ethnic cleansing on parts of the territory under their control to ensure a Kurdish majority (as did the people before them). That includes not allowing Yazidis back to their homes.
    D) Most of the minorities under Kurdish control do not want to be a part of an independent Kurdistan.
    E) This whole process was pushed by one Kurdish faction as a way to monopolize power in Kurdistan. They thought the nationalist pressure would force the other Kurdish faction to give in. The gambit failed.
    F) The process was a joke from the beginning given that Kurdistan is landlocked and its independence is opposed by every single Kurdish neighbor. At some point, practical concerns trump moral ones.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I was not immediately aware of that. A quick examination indicates participation was a mixed bag and that Kurds have been acknowledging and apologizing for the genocide. However, forgive me if I'm wrong but were the other locals who are currently in power less involved in that? Because I'm pretty sure they participated as well.
    There are christian and arab minorities in the area that typically is claimed as 'Kurdistan', of course they were never in power during the Ottoman empire, I am not current on their participation in the Armenian extermination, but I doubt it was substantive. Formal apologies are all nice and well, but I doubt it matters very much if you're still the subject of harrassment by your Kurdish neighbours for no other reason than that you are Armenian (returned), Arab or christian.

    Formal apologies also didn't get anybody his ancestral home or lands back.

    The obscene truth is that minorities in the Middle East more than anything lost protection as dictators lost power.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  27. #27
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I was not immediately aware of that. A quick examination indicates participation was a mixed bag and that Kurds have been acknowledging and apologizing for the genocide. However, forgive me if I'm wrong but were the other locals who are currently in power less involved in that? Because I'm pretty sure they participated as well.
    Well indeed, how are the Turks for instance coming along in acknowledging and apologising for their role in the Armenian genocide?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #28
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    The answer to that question depends entirely on definitions. The Turks acknowledge the deportations and murders, yet refuse to attribute those to government policies. When he was still a PM the present President has expressed 'pain' about the events in 1915, yet never formally apologized.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  29. #29
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    There are christian and arab minorities in the area that typically is claimed as 'Kurdistan', of course they were never in power during the Ottoman empire, I am not current on their participation in the Armenian extermination, but I doubt it was substantive.
    I'm not talking about the minorities, I'm talking about the people who were in power in the area before it became an effectively autonomous region and those who are in power in that area now. Both of which are groups who, AFAIK, did participate. So I'm not seeing how a move toward a more official Kurdistan changes anything on that front for the minorities from how it's been in the last 40-50 years.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The obscene truth is that minorities in the Middle East more than anything lost protection as dictators lost power.
    Yeah the Middle East is beyond fucked. I feel like people deserve a chance for Democracy but the culture there is too savage and barbaric for it. The best they can hope for is a semi-enlightened despot who slowly educates the populace and moves away from the religion that's even worse than Scientology.

    I'm sure there are exceptions and pockets of civility but the major countries like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc suck. The UAE for example isn't a Democracy in any sense of the word and it seems to be one of the least bad countries of the lot.

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