Exercising citizenship as an ex-pat American

[wiggin]

I've been thinking about this topic for a while, and haven't ever really thought up a good way to frame it. So instead I'll just throw out my thoughts and see what comes back.

As some of you may know, my wife and I are seriously considering moving outside the US in the relatively near future (~5 years or less, most likely). The detailed timeline and reasons are largely unimportant, but we are certainly keenly interested in making the big move. What's somewhat odd, though, is how we will continue to interact with the US as American citizens, and how we should.

Plenty of ex-pats vote in US elections, carefully register their children for US passports, and frequently have significant assets parked in the US (along with major investments in US debt and equities). They self-identify as American in ways that cannot be easily divorced from their worldview and outlook. Yet I wonder - if I legitimately have chosen to live the rest of my life outside the US, do I have a right to call myself an American?

Now, this could easily degenerate into an argument about the semantics of who defines an American. But let's just look at practical matters: Should we continue to vote in US elections? If so, should we vote with an eye to improving our own situation (e.g. candidates who would be friendly to our country of residence, or pass tax laws that would help us), or should we vote for a hypothetical 'domestic' electorate? Do we have the moral right to vote, anyways?

What about taking advantage of the protections afforded US citizens, both for us and our children? Should we travel under US passports and go to US embassies or consulates in times of trouble? Is it fair to do so when we have effectively repudiated the US as our home, but still cynically take advantage of the privileges of citizenship?

On an even stickier question - should we vote in our adoptive country in a pro-US manner, or just choose candidates that are best for the country itself?

I guess this is an issue that has been troubling me for some time. There are a lot of ex-pats from various developed countries floating around, and I'm not sure the traditional model of immigration is followed in their cases. There is rarely a repudiation of their country of origin or a whole-hearted embrace of their new home, but at the same time their motives can get awfully messy from an ethical perspective. I have no doubt I will always have a quintessentially American worldview, and will always wish the very best for the country in which I was born. To be honest, life would be a lot easier if we just stayed in the US with a fairly wealthy lifestyle, and we will always have a strong fondness and connection to the US. Yet I don't know if that connection should give me the same rights as someone who actually lives in the US. What are the ethical obligations of citizenship, and the ethical prerequisites to exercise the rights of citizenship? How can dual-citizenship be managed in today's globalized setting?

[Loki]

Everyone lives by their own ethics, and as long as those ethics aren't far outside the norm, I don't think it's really the job of anyone to question them. Presumably you've spent longer thinking about what is ethical for you than anyone here thought about what is ethical for you. I doubt there's a clear line between being pragmatic and taking advantage of your American citizenship. The only red line I'd see is acting in a way that benefits your new country but hurts the US. Then again, people are excellent at self-justification, so it's not that difficult to think of reasons why any given action doesn't really hurt the US.

[wiggin]

I'm not really settled on this issue. Given that I don't know for sure I won't ever move back to the US, I imagine I would keep some of the protections of citizenship, but I don't know if that gives me the ethical right to vote in the US when I am not living there (or planning on living there in the future). I would obviously never contemplate any action that would materially hurt the US.

I guess I feel that the old paradigm of citizenship is getting more and more frayed with mobile populations and theoretically cosmopolitan values. I want to treat my US citizenship with the respect it deserves, but while the old exclusive model would IMO frown upon 'citizenship from afar', emerging models might even specifically encourage it. Does anyone have a logical framework in which such ethical issues are decided?

[Wraith]

I don't think there's necessarily any problem with taking advantage of what's available to you from the US government while you're living abroad. I don't think where a person physically resides is what should make a person an American.

I'm assuming you're a natural born citizen, so you've never really taken the Oath of Allegiance, but I'd suggest looking it over, and asking yourself about how willing you'd be to follow it (I don't see a problem with bending a bit on the renouncing other ties part). If you'd be okay with taking that oath in good faith, I don't feel there should be any ethical problems with going to US embassies or taking advantage of whatever else is available to Americans abroad.

As for voting, just vote your conscience.

[wiggin]

Okay, Wraithy, but it's hardly as clear as that. Let us imagine that the country I'm interested in moving to, while a close ally of the US, is hardly in total agreement on all issues. In fact, they have a number of diplomatic disputes (hell, the US has diplomatic disputes with Canada, and they're practically our attic). I find it quite likely that I would be more likely to weight such disputes (and the satisfactory resolution thereof) more heavily if I were living in said country than if I was in the US. What do I care (other than intellectually) about some domestic spending proposal when I'm not living there?

Isn't there some minimum level of commitment needed to call yourself a citizen?

[GGT]

Dual citizenship has always been a strange thing in my mind. As much as I bitch about the US, I really can't imagine any circumstance that would make we want to give up my citizenship for another country. We all have genetic or ethnic ties to "other places", but most of us don't feel the need to return to those places. Only you can answer why you feel that pull.

If this is such an internal conflict for you wiggin, why couldn't you live abroad as an American "visitor"? Voting in the new country seems to be important to you, but there are ways to be involved in policy that don't necessarily mean voting in elections.

[Wraith]

Okay, Wraithy, but it's hardly as clear as that. Let us imagine that the country I'm interested in moving to, while a close ally of the US, is hardly in total agreement on all issues. In fact, they have a number of diplomatic disputes (hell, the US has diplomatic disputes with Canada, and they're practically our attic). I find it quite likely that I would be more likely to weight such disputes (and the satisfactory resolution thereof) more heavily if I were living in said country than if I was in the US. What do I care (other than intellectually) about some domestic spending proposal when I'm not living there?

Almost everyone weighs the issues that they see more personally higher than other issues. I can't really see any cause to complain about stuff like that.

Also, why are we dancing around which country you're looking at? Is it something other than the obvious?

[wiggin]

Dual citizenship has always been a strange thing in my mind. As much as I bitch about the US, I really can't imagine any circumstance that would make we want to give up my citizenship for another country. We all have genetic or ethnic ties to "other places", but most of us don't feel the need to return to those places. Only you can answer why you feel that pull.

Oh, I'm not planning on 'giving up' my US citizenship. Just collecting another one, and I'm trying to conceptualize how they interact.

If this is such an internal conflict for you wiggin, why couldn't you live abroad as an American "visitor"? Voting in the new country seems to be important to you, but there are ways to be involved in policy that don't necessarily mean voting in elections.

Generally this is difficult to carry out on the long-term. Furthermore, given that my plan is to permanently settle in said country, I think that it's not so much a matter of desiring the rights of citizens (e.g. voting, etc.) but fulfilling the responsibilities thereof. Citizenship implies a responsibility and 'stewardship' of the country in which one resides; I fully intend to participate in that wherever I live.

Almost everyone weighs the issues that they see more personally higher than other issues. I can't really see any cause to complain about stuff like that.

Interesting. I kinda feel uncomfortable about it, but I guess that's just me? I mean, if I were living in Hong Kong I might feel differently about US trade policy than if I stayed in the States, yes? Is it fair to effectively vote the interests of my current residence if they may not be in the best interests of the US?

Also, why are we dancing around which country you're looking at? Is it something other than the obvious?

First off, there's actually a couple of options that we might end up choosing, though I'll admit one is more likely than the other. Secondly, I don't want to turn this debate into an argument about specific policy vis-a-vis country X or country Y, but rather a discussion of dual citizenship as an ex-pat in general.

[littlelolligagged]

Interesting. I kinda feel uncomfortable about it, but I guess that's just me? I mean, if I were living in Hong Kong I might feel differently about US trade policy than if I stayed in the States, yes? Is it fair to effectively vote the interests of my current residence if they may not be in the best interests of the US?

I agree with Wraithy. Most people will consider self-interest when voting.

[Being]

I mean, if I were living in Hong Kong I might feel differently about US trade policy than if I stayed in the States, yes? Is it fair to effectively vote the interests of my current residence if they may not be in the best interests of the US?

You could just as easily vote against something your resident country feels is good for it but your knowledge of the U.S. puts you at odds with. I'm with Wraith, vote your conscience.

[wiggin]

Self-interest is well and good (though I generally try to have a very broad definition thereof), but this is more complex. One would imagine that citizens can vote in elections as opposed to anyone because most of them live in the country and would act in enlightened self-interest to make the country better. Yes?

You could just as easily vote against something your resident country feels is good for it but your knowledge of the U.S. puts you at odds with. I'm with Wraith, vote your conscience.

But I have a wholly valid option - refraining from voting. If I know my judgment is likely to be skewed by my place of residence, is it ethical to exercise the 'right' of voting without the 'responsibility' of paying for any poor policies my candidate supports?

[GGT]

This sounds to me like an "identity" issue. A topic full of emotion and expectation and conflict.

wiggin says

Generally this is difficult to carry out on the long-term. Furthermore, given that my plan is to permanently settle in said country, I think that it's not so much a matter of desiring the rights of citizens (e.g. voting, etc.) but fulfilling the responsibilities thereof. Citizenship implies a responsibility and 'stewardship' of the country in which one resides; I fully intend to participate in that wherever I live.

You can be an American living anywhere in the world, but may not ever be able to take the American out of your identity. Is that good or bad? I don't know. That said, being a moral and responsible citizen isn't just an American ideal. I'd say if you plan to live permanently in another country, you have to ask yourself if you want to view yourself as a "settler" or a "citizen".

[wiggin]

The funny thing is, I'm happier about this from an identity perspective than from a practical perspective. I think it's easy to have an American identity regardless of where one is living, and I have no doubt that I will have such an identity until the day I die. Oh, sure, it'll be mixed up with other stuff, but it already is - that's practically part of the American identity, where everyone is a patchwork of different backgrounds.

I really don't think this is an identity issue so much as a practical question of the ethics of dual citizenship. (And yes, I will consider myself a 'citizen' of wherever I am, with all of the rights and responsibilities attached.)

[Steely Glint]

ethics

which

[CitizenCain]

Well, given that you didn't get to choose to be a citizen... and the American government will (and does) claim jurisdiction over you, even when living abroad, I don't see anything even remotely unethical about availing yourself of the benefits of US citizenship while living abroad. If you'll have the "responsibilities" forced on you, it only seems fair that you'd be free to avail yourself of the privileges too.

As to voting... I don't see why you'd care, but vote however you want, if you want to be bothered. It's not like it actually matters, or for that matter, like everyone doesn't vote for their personal interests at the expense of the good of the country anyway. Unless you're putting anthrax in the absentee voter envelope, I find it hard to see how your voting could be considered unethical.

[Dreadnaught]

There are few people who immigrate somewhere (especially somewhat later in life) who can totally divorce their life from the place they came from. Given that you're not fleeing the US as some kind of refugee and don't want to leave it in the dust, it's totally fair to want to maintain some connection here for you and your kids. This is your home —*and lots of people have two emotional homes (EG where one grew up vs. where someone lives later in life).

Also, continuing to vote in the US fulfills a service to the country you would live in, as it would indirectly promote shared interests.

That said, I was talking to a co-worker yesterday who grew up in Britania with an Amerikan mom. She's now working in the US for the first time as a US citizen and was surprised to learn that the US apparently fucking taxes you even when you live abroad.

[Flixy]

There are few people who immigrate somewhere (especially somewhat later in life) who can totally divorce their life from the place they came from. Given that you're not fleeing the US as some kind of refugee and don't want to leave it in the dust, it's totally fair to want to maintain some connection here for you and your kids. This is your home —*and lots of people have two emotional homes (EG where one grew up vs. where someone lives later in life).

I agree with that.

Are you going to just move, or take foreign citizenship? I think that if you voluntarily take a new citizenship, you automatically forfeit your old one, at least with the Dutch one you do (with exceptions when you marry someone there, etc). All people I know with dual citizenship were born with it. Anyway, if you still feel connected with the US, I think you should vote, if you don't feel like doing it, then don't.

[Dreadnaught]

The US doesn't recognize dual citizenships, but it doesn't technically track or forbid them. IE if an American gets foreign citizenship, he doesn't necessarily lose his US passport. And if he comes back to the US, the Americans won't ask him if he's taken a foreign passport; after all, he's still American, right?

[Flixy]

The US doesn't recognize dual citizenships, but it doesn't technically track or forbid them. IE if an American gets foreign citizenship, he doesn't necessarily lose his US passport. And if he comes back to the US, the Americans won't ask him if he's taken a foreign passport; after all, he's still American, right?

I guess our government considers taking on another citizenship as a sign that you don't want to be Dutch anymore And we require people who want to become Dutch to lose/renounce their former nationality, if they can.

[wiggin]

The whole dual citizenship thing in the US is very sticky. Taking US citizenship often requires renouncing other allegiances, but if one already has US citizenship, it's a bit of a gray area. There are quite a number of dual US-other citizens out there. Short of treasonous actions (e.g. taking up arms against the US, that sort of thing) it's actually pretty hard to lose your US citizenship.

To Dread and everyone else: thanks for your thoughts. I must admit I'm pretty surprised that no one other than me seems particularly concerned about it. I feel like dual-loyalty is a concern often voiced in America (whether it was about a Catholic running for president, former financial company wizards running the Treasury, Jews or Muslims in Congress, etc.) and I find it interesting that no one seems concerned about someone who 'votes with their feet' by leaving the US, regardless of the reason. Hmm. Definitely some food for thought.

[Dreadnaught]

Is the whole dual loyalty thing something you're hearing from people when you mention possibly moving to the Zio entity?

[GGT]

What are you saying in that last part about voting with your feet, wiggin?

I could never be a dual citizen, emotionally. The dual-loyalty is too conflicting. For me it'd be like being married and having a lover on the side. But you seemed to have made up your mind, and it's the "voting in both places" that's your conflict (?)

[wiggin]

Dread:

Not as such, no (though I generally don't discuss my potential future plans much with people I actually know). I've read a lot of discourse on it, but haven't had much in the way of personal experience with such accusations.

I don't even think it should be viewed as a loyalty issue so much as a potential conflict of interest. In business, generally individuals are recused from making decisions about COI issues. The equivalent here would be to refrain from voting, potentially in either country. Is such a choice warranted?

[gentry]

Living abroad is an experience that changes people in ways they never imagine possible. It's common for people to actually return "home" and have panic attacks, severe anxiety or other such symptoms of stress. It is difficult to adapt, especially when the rest of the world physically moves at a much faster pace than America. That is to say, the physical demands are greater and the discoveries are as well.

Many people move abroad and never think they'll care about the area they go to. I felt that way with China, certainly, but I knew the people I lived around so well. And my neighborhood, and my city, etc. I have a close friend in Dubai who is slowly but surely developing a national identity as a citizen of Dubai. She's an otherwise stalwart English patriot.

Exercising citizenship as an expat can be at once desirable and miserable. I had to fend off California like the bubonic plague in a pile of rats, but I was very keen on my federal vote while abroad. America tends to tax, as well, and it's truly not as low as Americans would like to believe. There's just no way to escape that income tax. Benefits don't travel, I don't know exactly what happens with medicare/social security and the cost of insuring in a foreign nation when you are not a citizen can be outrageous.

With respect to patriotism, well, sod that. Whatever it means to be American, you are first and foremost a citizen of planet Earth. Those responsibilities and opportunities have for too long been overlooked by Americans.

I guess my only piece of advice is just to keep your American citizenship. I have a very WWII-era mentality with respect to being able to flee if I need to

[CitizenCain]

I don't even think it should be viewed as a loyalty issue so much as a potential conflict of interest. In business, generally individuals are recused from making decisions about COI issues. The equivalent here would be to refrain from voting, potentially in either country. Is such a choice warranted?

Only if you're moving to a nation on America's enemies list. And since I have to assume you're not emigrating to Syria or NK or wherever, I don't see the problem.

[wiggin]

gentry - I wouldn't worry about the financial considerations - the places I'm looking at have tax treaties with the US (sometimes quite decent ones, and have their own pension/insurance/etc. schemes that would apply to me if Social Security/etc. wouldn't. There's a few odd things generally (stuff like estate taxes and such can be weird, and some tax shelters in the US don't work overseas), and I have no doubt that in general my COL relative to my income will be lower, but I've already carefully researched these questions and I think it's very workable. In one particular circumstance, I would probably save significant amounts of money on schooling for my children which would more than make up for higher taxes and lower salaries.

On a more psychological level, I'm 100% certain that I would also develop an identity of a citizen of wherever I move in addition to my American identity. I'm not sure why this is something surprising. I find it rather unlikely about the panic attacks, though.

Cain -

You don't think allies of the US can have diverging interests at times? I'm not talking about treason here, just a different ordering of priorities.

[Timbuk2]

I could never be a dual citizen, emotionally. The dual-loyalty is too conflicting. For me it'd be like being married and having a lover on the side. But you seemed to have made up your mind, and it's the "voting in both places" that's your conflict (?)

As a multi-national who spent much of my life, particularly as a child and during my formative years, as an expat moving with parents from country to country without having had a national 'home country' to have come from in the first place, I always find this kind of talk rather strange.

You really feel that 'loyal' to your home country? That to live somewhere else and develop a fondness for that place and its people, as people inevitably do, you would feel like it would be a kind of betrayal?

Patriotism is such a foreign feeling to me.

On a more psychological level, I'm 100% certain that I would also develop an identity of a citizen of wherever I move in addition to my American identity.

Sure you will.

Of the various countries I grew up and lived in, I developed a real fondness for all of them; a sense of identity with the people.

Often though, nationals from various countries do clump together, particularly in countries where the language is foreign. Americans often hang around with other Americans, Frenchies hang around with other Frenchies etc. Social lives consequently become intertwined that way.

I always feel this is a bit of a shame; that people have this opportunity to experience a different people/culture/way of life, but don't take full advantage of it. One could argue though that people are naturally drawn to others with whom they have something to share, and national identity is significant enough I suppose.

[CitizenCain]

Cain -

You don't think allies of the US can have diverging interests at times? I'm not talking about treason here, just a different ordering of priorities.

Of course. But if the governments in question can't even be bothered to pass legislation on the issue, it clearly doesn't even rise to the level of "trivial."

FFS, Ohio recently passed a bill banning individuals from importing more than 25 cases of wine per year (seriously). The lack of legislation regarding COIs with allied nations and dual-citizens seems to strongly suggest that our government(s) care less about that issue than how much wine you buy across state lines.

So, if the issue is that incredibly unimportant to the government, I don't know why you should even give it a second thought.

[Hazir]

I'm not so certain the answer to your question is the same at all times; I think it's very likely that after a sufficient time outside of the USA you may find that the citizenship of that country simply isn't as important to you as you consider it today. Once you reach that point you may also start thinking that voting in US elections is simply silly. Having said that, most American expats I know do still identify as American even after decades abroad, and they do vote in US elections.

[GGT]

As a multi-national who spent much of my life, particularly as a child and during my formative years, as an expat moving with parents from country to country without having had a national 'home country' to have come from in the first place, I always find this kind of talk rather strange.

You really feel that 'loyal' to your home country? That to live somewhere else and develop a fondness for that place and its people, as people inevitably do, you would feel like it would be a kind of betrayal?

Patriotism is such a foreign feeling to me.

How can you be a multi-national AND an expat without a home country? Does that mean you're a multi-expat?

I wouldn't call it loyalty, betrayal, maybe not even patriotism. I never spent much time thinking about the why or the word. There was a time when I considered moving to Canada. It was odd that a border would affect my mindset (from a northern US state walking into Canada), but it did. Probably because of my children more than anything.

The US has a way of making people feel like they come from--or belong to--a region, with emotional ties. I've lived in the northeast for 20 years but still 'feel' like a midwesterner because that's where I was raised and went to school, including college. As you say, nationals tend to clump together socially in foreign countries, it's just a quirk of human behavior to find groups where we identify as comfortable.

I have Canadian friends who are new citizens here. They did it for their adopted US daughter and also for business/tax reasons. But they still "feel" Canadian and always will. When I asked if they'd have applied for citizenship if it meant giving up Canadian citizenship they said no. My sister married into a Greek family that emigrated and became US citizens, but they self-identity as Greeks first, Americans second. Two generations later and into the third and fourth, they still say they're Greek first.

"World Citizen" sounds romantic but impractical. Identity is more than just our gene pool, or place of birth, or which country issued our passport, or assigned our tax ID number....