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Thread: That whole #metoo thing

  1. #31
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    To get back to the subject of the #metoo campaign, this is a recording of the sting that ultimately led to this whole thing blowing up much later:

    http://video.newyorker.com/watch/har...caught-on-tape

    There are of course now also allegations of rape, but this is what led to #metoo primarily focusing on harassment, coercion, unsolicited and inappropriate touching etc.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Yes, yes I did. It was a mistake to fall into that trap.
    It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

    And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

    You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

    And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

    You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.
    I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.

  4. #34
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

    And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

    You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.
    I'm sorry but remain skeptical of your dismissal of other people's experiences. Your characterization of their accounts remains as wrong now as it was when you started this thread. You can continue to preach your "suck it up" advice to victims/survivors where you can find them, it's no business of mine. If you're willing to acknowledge that the stories shared under #metoo are legit then obviously you should have no problems withdrawing from your initial position, regardless of how annoyed you were by my later posts. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, then obviously you don't have a leg to stand on when you criticize me for not taking sufficient care in responding to your posts. Do you now acknowledge the #metoo stories as being legit or don't you? You can't have it both ways. I can't help but find it curious that you accuse me of taking an absolutist position while bringing extremism and hyperbole to the table, but this is obviously nothing new.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  5. #35
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.
    I only grope myself, and never in public, but Hazir's and Fuzzy's criticism of those parts of my posts is not without merit. My intentions notwithstanding, it's not unreasonable to interpret my posts as being dismissive of someone's personal experiences with trauma, based on gender-related presumptions etc. In theory, a case can be made for either view--see many more-or-less toxic internal debates within LGBTQ+ community about who has the roughest go of it--but it wasn't appropriate in this discussion and I was wrong to take that approach and especially wrong to be so dismissive.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.
    Ah right, so now we are going to talk as if only the Weinsteins of this world are the problem? You don't actually have to grab someone in the crotch to be part of the problem.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I'm sorry but remain skeptical of your dismissal of other people's experiences. Your characterization of their accounts remains as wrong now as it was when you started this thread. You can continue to preach your "suck it up" advice to victims/survivors where you can find them, it's no business of mine. If you're willing to acknowledge that the stories shared under #metoo are legit then obviously you should have no problems withdrawing from your initial position, regardless of how annoyed you were by my later posts. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, then obviously you don't have a leg to stand on when you criticize me for not taking sufficient care in responding to your posts. Do you now acknowledge the #metoo stories as being legit or don't you? You can't have it both ways. I can't help but find it curious that you accuse me of taking an absolutist position while bringing extremism and hyperbole to the table, but this is obviously nothing new.
    No buddy, you lost your credibility the moment when you started to tell me why my experiences didn't count in a a discourse about the validation of people's personal experiences.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  8. #38
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    No buddy, you lost your credibility the moment when you started to tell me why my experiences didn't count in a a discourse about the validation of people's personal experiences.
    So long as you attempt to use your experiences to dismiss other people's experiences, you will be wrong. No matter how wrong or reprehensible or otherwise deficient I turn out to be, this fact will not change. What you do with that fact is entirely up to you.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Ah right, so now we are going to talk as if only the Weinsteins of this world are the problem? You don't actually have to grab someone in the crotch to be part of the problem.
    So, perhaps you can illuminate me. How is Aimless part of the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I only grope myself, and never in public, but Hazir's and Fuzzy's criticism of those parts of my posts is not without merit. My intentions notwithstanding, it's not unreasonable to interpret my posts as being dismissive of someone's personal experiences with trauma, based on gender-related presumptions etc. In theory, a case can be made for either view--see many more-or-less toxic internal debates within LGBTQ+ community about who has the roughest go of it--but it wasn't appropriate in this discussion and I was wrong to take that approach and especially wrong to be so dismissive.
    Someone can be wrong, even dismissive, and still not be part of the problem.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    So long as you attempt to use your experiences to dismiss other people's experiences, you will be wrong. No matter how wrong or reprehensible or otherwise deficient I turn out to be, this fact will not change. What you do with that fact is entirely up to you.
    You are the one who was dismissive of my experiences while at the same moment demanding of me that I would validate the exact same experiences by other people because YOU had decided that I as a MAN could not be as much as a victim as a woman. If you had any moral hygiene about you your only reaction to what I said should have been to acknowledge that what I experienced was actual sexual harassment, not telling me that my experience didn't matter so much. You could then have maybe convinced me that my sucking it up was something not everybody is capable of. But you didn't choose to do that, you chose to tell me that what I experienced didn't count.

    Your attitude is exactly why male victims are afraid to tell about their experiences; experiences that can never be quite authentic since the fact that they have a dick should have made them immune to sexual abuse. I repeat, you are part of the problem, trying to act as if you are part of the solution because you understand so perfectly what women experience. I suggest you first start trying to understand a bit better to understand what men experience before you declare yourself an expert on the opposite sex.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    So, perhaps you can illuminate me. How is Aimless part of the problem?



    Someone can be wrong, even dismissive, and still not be part of the problem.
    I suggest you read my reply to him.

    As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity. Pretty much how you don't tell a woman how she wasn't really raped since she wore slutty clothes.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  12. #42
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity.
    And yet this seems to have been your entire purpose in starting this thread: to tell women posting under metoo that what happened to them wasn't sexual harassment.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I suggest you read my reply to him.

    As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity. Pretty much how you don't tell a woman how she wasn't really raped since she wore slutty clothes.
    And if your only interaction with Aimless was this single exchange, and you knew nothing else about him, you might be justified in believing that. As this is not the case, and you both have long posting histories here, with many personal exchanges with the other, might it not be just to give him the benefit of the doubt. Even if this conversation existed in a vacuum, I am not convinced that being callous or dismissive makes someone part of the problem.

  14. #44
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You are the one who was dismissive of my experiences while at the same moment demanding of me that I would validate the exact same experiences by other people because YOU had decided that I as a MAN could not be as much as a victim as a woman. If you had any moral hygiene about you your only reaction to what I said should have been to acknowledge that what I experienced was actual sexual harassment, not telling me that my experience didn't matter so much. You could then have maybe convinced me that my sucking it up was something not everybody is capable of. But you didn't choose to do that, you chose to tell me that what I experienced didn't count.

    Your attitude is exactly why male victims are afraid to tell about their experiences; experiences that can never be quite authentic since the fact that they have a dick should have made them immune to sexual abuse. I repeat, you are part of the problem, trying to act as if you are part of the solution because you understand so perfectly what women experience. I suggest you first start trying to understand a bit better to understand what men experience before you declare yourself an expert on the opposite sex.
    Again, your experiences do not justify your dismissal of other people's experiences. I do not know how many other ways in which I can say the same thing. What you experience counts, no-one can say otherwise, and it was not my intention to say that your experiences do not count. But if by "count" you mean "can be used to dismiss other people's experiences as trivial or their reactions as exaggerated" then no. If that's what you mean, you're wrong. And that was all I wanted to say with those statements.

    A man can be just as much a victim as a woman, but that still doesn't mean you can dismiss someone else's experiences. Granted you claimed that victimhood was a matter of choice, which is about 50% horseshit, but even if it weren't and you made the "choice" to be a victim, your victimhood would not justify your dismissal of other people's experiences. Ffs, your solution to these problems--to the minimal extent that you even considered them to be legitimate--was to give an offender a "slap on the wrist" and/or essentially suck it up and change one's mindset. Are you shitting me? How many times is a person supposed to expose themselves to the risk of a violent, aggressive or socially/financially damaging retaliation in order to train people in their environment to behave using the slap-on-the-wrist method? How much is a person required to endure, according to the Book of Hazir?

    Now, I can only apologize for saying something that clearly hurt and angered you, which was not my intention. I am genuinely sorry for that. I regret my misguided approach to this discussion, it was a blatant error. But stop trying to use your personal experiences to trivialize other people's experiences. I don't understand "so perfectly what women experience" any more than I understand perfectly what you experience or you understand perfectly what anyone else experiences. And for that reason, I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss someone else's experiences with harassment or assault.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    And if your only interaction with Aimless was this single exchange, and you knew nothing else about him, you might be justified in believing that. As this is not the case, and you both have long posting histories here, with many personal exchanges with the other, might it not be just to give him the benefit of the doubt. Even if this conversation existed in a vacuum, I am not convinced that being callous or dismissive makes someone part of the problem.
    Yeah well, I am a gay man and I am not inclined to give straight men the benefit of the doubt. Especially not after they have explained to me that I couldn't possibly believe I could be a real victim.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Again, your experiences do not justify your dismissal of other people's experiences. I do not know how many other ways in which I can say the same thing. What you experience counts, no-one can say otherwise, and it was not my intention to say that your experiences do not count. But if by "count" you mean "can be used to dismiss other people's experiences as trivial or their reactions as exaggerated" then no. If that's what you mean, you're wrong. And that was all I wanted to say with those statements.

    A man can be just as much a victim as a woman, but that still doesn't mean you can dismiss someone else's experiences. Granted you claimed that victimhood was a matter of choice, which is about 50% horseshit, but even if it weren't and you made the "choice" to be a victim, your victimhood would not justify your dismissal of other people's experiences. Ffs, your solution to these problems--to the minimal extent that you even considered them to be legitimate--was to give an offender a "slap on the wrist" and/or essentially suck it up and change one's mindset. Are you shitting me? How many times is a person supposed to expose themselves to the risk of a violent, aggressive or socially/financially damaging retaliation in order to train people in their environment to behave using the slap-on-the-wrist method? How much is a person required to endure, according to the Book of Hazir?

    Now, I can only apologize for saying something that clearly hurt and angered you, which was not my intention. I am genuinely sorry for that. I regret my misguided approach to this discussion, it was a blatant error. But stop trying to use your personal experiences to trivialize other people's experiences. I don't understand "so perfectly what women experience" any more than I understand perfectly what you experience or you understand perfectly what anyone else experiences. And for that reason, I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss someone else's experiences with harassment or assault.
    Now, let me ask how long it took you to apologize directly TO ME after you wrote to Littlefuzzy you had 'walked into a trap'.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    And yet this seems to have been your entire purpose in starting this thread: to tell women posting under metoo that what happened to them wasn't sexual harassment.
    Nope, it was for EVERYBODY to consider where this could potentially lead to.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  18. #48
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Nope, it was for EVERYBODY to consider where this could potentially lead to.
    Because you thought what was being posted under metoo wasn't sexual harassment.
    The walls are coming down.
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  19. #49
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity.
    That was certainly not what I wanted to say with that response to your post, and I can only apologize for being a dick. I haven't yet made that mistake in real life and I hope I never do.
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  20. #50
    Hazir is a pretty good example of why people who are sexually harassed don't always come forward. Nothing like having the courage to open up about a traumatic experience only to have some clueless fool come in and talk down to you about what you really experienced.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Hazir is a pretty good example of why people who are sexually harassed don't always come forward. Nothing like having the courage to open up about a traumatic experience only to have some clueless fool come in and talk down to you about what you really experienced.
    Did you actually read the thread?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Because you thought what was being posted under metoo wasn't sexual harassment.
    Except that I didn't write that. And I doubt you know what I think about sexual harassment if you think I thought that. I called for caution. Not wanting a witch hunt, does not equal goings soft on sexual harassment.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Did you actually read the thread?
    I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    One can put oneself in the position of a victim (thus actually empowering the culprit) or give that person a slap on the wrist (literal or verbal) and keep power in one's own hands. I think that any situation where the balance of power was similar does not merit the label 'sexual harassment'.

    and this is fucked up
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  24. #54
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post

    and this is fucked up
    I dunno, Hazir's not entirely wrong. Probably the most egregious example of sexual harassment I've experienced was from an troll I'd shot down in a bar earlier. When I left he followed me out, told me he was a cop and threatened to charge me with solicitation if I didn't agree to suck his dick. I laughed in the bastards face and told him to get lost, that no cop in this town spoke with that kind of broken English. It was definitely sexual harassment on its merits but while it pissed me off I never really regarded it as victimizing me. Maybe things would have been different if I'd thought he actually was a cop and the threat was real. Pretty sure the only real difference in my response would have been that I damn well would have gone down to the station to make a complaint and see what I could do to make the guy's life hell, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    I did.

    and this is fucked up
    No it is not. Sexual harassment is not just about sexually tinted behaviour. It is about abuse of (any type of) power in relation to another person using acts of a sexual nature.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  26. #56
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Except that I didn't write that. And I doubt you know what I think about sexual harassment if you think I thought that. I called for caution. Not wanting a witch hunt, does not equal goings soft on sexual harassment.
    You wrote that it's wrong to equate, e.g. random unsolicited advances with sexual harassment in the context of the #metoo hashtag, indicated that that was what you thought people were putting in #metoo. But its not. Saying you "don't want a witch hunt" implies you think there's a witchhunt going on.
    The walls are coming down.
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  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I'm largely current with American custom. The whole hugging thing makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. Often made worse by the preceding words 'I'm a hugger'.
    Hugs aren't too common at work either. They do happen on occasion typically if someone is leaving the area/company absolutely not a regular daily occurrence.

  28. #58
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    I haven't read any of the #metoo comments, but I can say virtually every woman I've ever known has a story about some type of sexual harassment. And it doesn't have to involve physical contact or touching--sometimes it's only verbal comments, but those can be just as horrible. Even if it happens between peers (where a power imbalance doesn't apply), there's usually a reluctance to report it to superiors (where the power imbalance lives).

    Hazir, some of your posts seemed to conflate sexual harassment with sexual abuse. As if women coming forward to talk about their experiences with harassment somehow devalues "real victims" of sexual abuse. It's possible that slippery slope your infer (where practically everything becomes an "assault") is just more conflation. At least that's how I read it.

    I think you calling #metoo a "thing" shows you're missing the real point, which is ending the silence

  29. #59
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Also, this isn't about any "heterosexual mating behavior norms" implied in your OP....but the consistent, constant, continual challenges girls and women face from men, especially men in power, when we're just trying to get an education or a job based on merit and ability. The Hollywood 'Director's Couch' metric should have died decades ago, but the sad truth is that it didn't....and other industries haven't gotten the memo that it's NOT okay to treat women differently, just because they're women. Why?

    There are still websites advising women to wear skirts and hose and heels on their first interview, because 'men like that' (and chances are that a man will be conducting that first interview). That's fucked up

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Also, this isn't about any "heterosexual mating behavior norms" implied in your OP....but the consistent, constant, continual challenges girls and women face from men, especially men in power, when we're just trying to get an education or a job based on merit and ability. The Hollywood 'Director's Couch' metric should have died decades ago, but the sad truth is that it didn't....and other industries haven't gotten the memo that it's NOT okay to treat women differently, just because they're women. Why?

    There are still websites advising women to wear skirts and hose and heels on their first interview, because 'men like that' (and chances are that a man will be conducting that first interview). That's fucked up
    Well, your posts are a good example as to why I think we're at risk of getting carried away. You state that virtually all women are subjected to it, you include physical and verbal and kick out the power argument. With such a wide net all women (and the standard forgotten men) are victims of impolite human interactions. Congratulations.

    I for my part think that sexual harassment or sexual abuse are something a tiny bit more specific. The two are not as separate as you think they are either. Sexual abuse is merely sexual harassment in which the culprit has achieved his objectives. Both deserve a harsh reaction by either society or the criminal system. But for any behavior to be classified as either the question or the balance of power is essential. If there is no element of power involved , and power can express itself in a myriad of ways, then there is no victim and there is no reason for society or the criminal system to jump into action. If there is a victim either has every reason to. That is why it is not without meaning if you designate yourself a victim.

    The same mechanisms are at work in bullying. Also a real problem in real life. But clearly we don't get quite as deep into the victimization of oneself because we don't get to tar the other side of the interaction with being sexually sleazy.

    Oh, and just so that you don't feel trapped later on. I have been on the receiving end of both sexual abuse and sexual harassment. I can #metoo the fuck out of most of your 'virtually all women'.
    Last edited by Hazir; 10-25-2017 at 09:29 AM.

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