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Thread: That whole #metoo thing

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    It was definitely sexual harassment
    Full stop. Sexual harassment is sexual harassment regardless of how the receiving party responds verbally, physically, or mentally.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  2. #62
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    And yet this seems to have been your entire purpose in starting this thread: to tell women posting under metoo that what happened to them wasn't sexual harassment.
    Hazir currently comes over as one of those guys who thinks that "just ignore it, they'll become bored" is good advice in relation to bullying. Or better yet, suggests that it might be something the bullied person is doing.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well, your posts are a good example as to why I think we're at risk of getting carried away. You state that virtually all women are subjected to it, you include physical and verbal and kick out the power argument. With such a wide net all women (and the standard forgotten men) are victims of impolite human interactions. Congratulations.

    I for my part think that sexual harassment or sexual abuse are something a tiny bit more specific. The two are not as separate as you think they are either. Sexual abuse is merely sexual harassment in which the culprit has achieved his objectives. Both deserve a harsh reaction by either society or the criminal system. But for any behavior to be classified as either the question or the balance of power is essential. If there is no element of power involved , and power can express itself in a myriad of ways, then there is no victim and there is no reason for society or the criminal system to jump into action. If there is a victim either has every reason to. That is why it is not without meaning if you designate yourself a victim.
    I agree mostly with these sentiments, with the caveat that there likely is some value in society jumping into action to address those kinds of behaviors, even if they are not strictly speaking illegal. If I see that kind of behavior directed at myself or another individual I don't think it's problematic to confront the person about it, (though I get the distinct impression from previous posts that you don't either).
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 10-25-2017 at 06:51 PM.

  4. #64
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Hazir currently comes over as one of those guys who thinks that "just ignore it, they'll become bored" is good advice in relation to bullying.
    It often is good advice, particularly when all involved are adults. It won't always be the case but it's the pretty standard default.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    You wrote that it's wrong to equate, e.g. random unsolicited advances with sexual harassment in the context of the #metoo hashtag, indicated that that was what you thought people were putting in #metoo. But its not. Saying you "don't want a witch hunt" implies you think there's a witchhunt going on.
    I don't think there is a witchhunt going on already, I think it's what we're at risk of if we don't stop to think.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Hazir currently comes over as one of those guys who thinks that "just ignore it, they'll become bored" is good advice in relation to bullying. Or better yet, suggests that it might be something the bullied person is doing.
    There is an element of it in what I say I will admit. But that only applies to those situations where the (potential) victim realizes there are ways to not lose all power in dealing with the situation. Ignoring may be one effective way in specific situations. It does NOT apply at all in situations where the victim has lost power already. A victim doesn't benefit from people telling they too are suffering, a victim benefits from people standing up for him/her.

    An example a little bit less loaded (I hope); a friend is close to tears over having put down a much beloved dog. Will you support him more by telling how you felt when you had to put down your dog, or will your support be more valuable when you validate his sadness without burdening him with your rehashed emotions?

    I tend to think the kind thing is to suck up the things I want to say about Yoshi and just let him be sad and tell him how sad it is to loose a dog.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  7. #67
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    I think a lot of males underestimate how awful catcalling is. And maybe it happens in major cities in certain countries a lot more because there's more pedestrian traffic, but honestly catcalling can be fucking traumatic in aggregate.

  8. #68
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    When I logged in tonight, it was specifically to share another type of gender exploitation that might be interpreted as harassment, in my dealings with a realtor. But I got sidetracked by other threads....and truth be told, it reduced my stress by talking about those things first, which is probably part of countering the 'victimization' process that I've been fighting/overcoming my whole life. Which is, to first express some type of academic opinion, in order to be taken seriously when speaking about gender-related issues.

    But that's how preposterous and difficult it's become for women (or minorities in general) to express themselves! It's beyond ironic that in the 21st century, where people who have been "victims" of the past, and want to create a new narrative, have to continually explain themselves. Or what being treated as equals really means.

    George HW Bush was recently accused of sexual assault because he fondled womens' butts, mostly during photo ops. No, that's not sexual assault, and it may not even be sexual harassment, but it IS sexual/gender exploitation. He wasn't grabbing mens' behind, just womens'. So explanations of his Parkinson's disease, or being in a wheelchair, don't comport. It's also not enough to give him a "pass" because he's over 90 years old. The Dirty Old Man excuse is still just another excuse for unacceptable behavior.....and we should stop making excuses

  9. #69
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    There is an element of it in what I say I will admit. But that only applies to those situations where the (potential) victim realizes there are ways to not lose all power in dealing with the situation. Ignoring may be one effective way in specific situations. It does NOT apply at all in situations where the victim has lost power already. A victim doesn't benefit from people telling they too are suffering, a victim benefits from people standing up for him/her.

    An example a little bit less loaded (I hope); a friend is close to tears over having put down a much beloved dog. Will you support him more by telling how you felt when you had to put down your dog, or will your support be more valuable when you validate his sadness without burdening him with your rehashed emotions?

    I tend to think the kind thing is to suck up the things I want to say about Yoshi and just let him be sad and tell him how sad it is to loose a dog.
    You're not seriously using dogs to compare to humans, right?

  10. #70
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Anyway, the point I wanted to make was I've seen it all, and it affected my outlook. From boys in grade school who thought it was cute or funny to poke pencils in developing breasts (very painful) or pulling on bra straps, or making fun of girls who took compulsory swimming class exemptions because they were menstruating, to male teachers commenting on short skirts or cheerleader uniforms, to male bosses asking if I wanted to have babies in interviews---they were all attempts to humiliate or subordinate.

    And now that I'm a full grown, smart, and financially independent woman....I am still treated like a "dumb broad that doesn't understand business negotiations and is too emotional", and get yelled at when I don't accept a buyer's first offer! Won't go into the details, but the (female) secretary that witnessed the scenario said I did the right thing by standing my ground. I know I'd never have been talked to that way if I'd had a male on my arm. And that's a big part of the problem, or at least a symptom of larger, underlying, problematic attitudes.

    When I tried to explain to the realtor/agent that his tone and attitude rubbed me the wrong way, I took it as a sadly ironic but potentially good sign when he admitted that his own wife couldn't get a decent estimate from the auto shop on her own, and it took his presence to get the right price. That's fucked up. But that kind of shit happens EVERY DAY to women, and it's definitely gender exploitation. It's not only wrong, it's exhausting

  11. #71
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Do men like Ray Moore (AL candidate for US Senate) fall into the same category as Kevin Spacey (Hollywood icon)? There's some new thing going on, where the accused/alleged perpetrators are hiding behind political parties, or industry interests, but don't feel protected. And it's no longer a 'working strategy' to blame or shame the victim.

    It used to be that victims were easily and readily dismissed. But that no longer passes muster, as more victims feel empowered, and come forward with their stories. Ending the silence has opened the floodgates...

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Do men like Ray Moore (AL candidate for US Senate) fall into the same category as Kevin Spacey (Hollywood icon)? There's some new thing going on, where the accused/alleged perpetrators are hiding behind political parties, or industry interests, but don't feel protected. And it's no longer a 'working strategy' to blame or shame the victim.

    It used to be that victims were easily and readily dismissed. But that no longer passes muster, as more victims feel empowered, and come forward with their stories. Ending the silence has opened the floodgates...
    In general it is a good thing that victims feel that they can come forward. But let's not kid ourselves, false rape claims occur all the time. In fact Bill Clinton was accused of rape while in office, should he have immediately stepped down? Many people are quick to demand Moore to step down but they don't know how credible the claimant is, yet.

    IF Ray Moore is guilty (and I'm actually leaning a bit over 50% on it but honestly don't know) then fuck him. He should resign, he should go to prison and he should die there. However ONLY if he is guilty. In fact if he isn't guilty he should fight tooth and nail against the allegations.

  13. #73
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Where's the fucking evidence that false rape accusations are any more common than false accusations of any other type of crime?

    Regarding Roy Moore,

    In 2015, while Moore was serving on the Alabama Supreme Court, he considered the case of Eric Lemont Higdon, a 17-year-old, who was convicted of raping a 12-year-old at a daycare center. Higdon was found guilty under a sodomy statute that applied specifically to minors, as well another statute prohibiting rape. The second conviction was overturned by an appeals court and sent to the state supreme court for review.

    Eight justices found that the 12-year-old’s fear of harm from a much older and larger individual was enough to establish “implied threat of serious physical injury” and reinstated Higdon’s conviction. Moore was the only dissent, saying that there was “no evidence in this case of an implied threat of serious physical injury.” Moore oddly argued that the court’s interpretation opened the door to a 10-year-old being found guilty of raping an 8-year-old.
    Source: https://thinkprogress.org/this-is-wh...-c844cf8ff480/

    (actual document: http://alabamaappellatewatch.com/wp-...of-Alabama.pdf)

    So that's good. Real moral... thing you've got going on there, buddy.
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  14. #74
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Yeah, Moore was unfit for office....without any accusations of being a sexual creep or 'child molester'.

    Lewk, you shouldn't use terms like "guilty". When it comes to sexual harassment/abuse/exploitation, many of these situations never see a day in court. Either because of lack of proof/evidence or statutes of limitations. Stop conflating false rape reports (a small percentage that gets flushed out in the court system using DNA and forensic evidence) with cases that never go to court at all, because it's a he said/she said scenario. And who would take the word of a young woman (or girl) over that of a powerful man, right?

    Don't forget we've got a president who was elected AFTER incriminating audio tapes surfaced, supporting his accusers' claims that he's a creep.

  15. #75
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    You claimed the exact opposite in the post before this one.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  16. #76
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    How so? I said that ending the silence has opened the floodgates.

  17. #77
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Damn, even Charlie Rose?! It's not totally surprising to learn that men in power have abused their positions of power and mistreated women, but it still makes me sad.

  18. #78
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    The walls are coming down.
    All we need is one to fail, one to break, one to take it all away.
    What if we crumble, what if we fall? Where's the flame that torch the soul?
    Truth, when spoken, dies down to nothing.

  19. #79
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    If dictionaries had pictures O'Keefe would have a permanent presence next to "pwnd".

    Him and his legions of fans are spinning this as a win though.
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    "Project Veritas, founded in 2010, is a tax-exempt charity that says its mission is to “investigate and expose corruption, dishonesty, self-dealing, waste, fraud and other misconduct.” It raised $4.8 million and employed 38 people in 2016, according to its public tax filing. It also had 92 volunteers."


  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Oh so liberals believe they do happen now?

  22. #82
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Of course the *happen* every now and again. There's 7 billion people of there, do you think none of them ever said they were raped when they weren't? Do they happen often, or lead to convictions? No, that's just something misogynists pretend happens to discourage women who have been raped from coming forward, or because they hold women in such contempt they think a significant number of them lie about a serious crime for no reason other than spite.

    I leave as an exercise to the reader which camp you fall into.
    The walls are coming down.
    All we need is one to fail, one to break, one to take it all away.
    What if we crumble, what if we fall? Where's the flame that torch the soul?
    Truth, when spoken, dies down to nothing.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    There's 7 billion people of there, do you think none of them ever said they were raped when they weren't? Do they happen often, or lead to convictions?
    The amount of people behind bars for false rape charges is probably incredibly tiny. However the number of people who have been harmed by false rape allegations would be significantly higher.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/why-ca...rticle/2010401

    That's just for college, to say nothing of professional careers, social shame, child custody hearings and more. And often times there is no punishment of people who falsely cry rape.

    For example this shit head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Mangum faced zero charges for nearly helping railroad innocent people. Note: Just the accusation itself was enough for the college to completely suspend their Lacross team.

  24. #84
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    I'd wager more lives have been ruined by people disbelieving true accusations rather than believing false ones. That's how fuckers like Weinstein get away with it for so long.

    That said I find the entire notion of rape accusations being dealt with by universities, rather than law enforcement, and them handing on suspensions from sports teams when they find someone guilty utterly bizarre.
    The walls are coming down.
    All we need is one to fail, one to break, one to take it all away.
    What if we crumble, what if we fall? Where's the flame that torch the soul?
    Truth, when spoken, dies down to nothing.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post

    That said I find the entire notion of rape accusations being dealt with by universities, rather than law enforcement, and them handing on suspensions from sports teams when they find someone guilty utterly bizarre.
    Hey common ground! And its not even Christmas yet.

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    That said I find the entire notion of rape accusations being dealt with by universities, rather than law enforcement, and them handing on suspensions from sports teams when they find someone guilty utterly bizarre.
    The burden of proof for law enforcement is much much higher than what a university holds itself to. Nothing is stopping a student from reporting a rape to the school and the police. The police however may not act based on a number of reasons. Only a quarter of reported rapes lead to an arrest and only a fifth of those lead to a conviction. Some states don't recognize same sex rape, or rape against men.

    The school handing out their form of justice (cause PR > everything else) is sometimes the only justice the victim will get. They can also act quicker and generally have a greater sense of the victims needs, unlike criminal court.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  27. #87
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    I've heard as many examples of them essentially covering up rape accusations which were true as I have of them over zealously prosecuting accusations that turned out to be untrue. As you said, their priority is going to. ultimately, be their own reputation, not justice.

    I agree the way the criminal system treats rape victims is... not good, but I don't think farming the job out to education institutions is the answer.
    The walls are coming down.
    All we need is one to fail, one to break, one to take it all away.
    What if we crumble, what if we fall? Where's the flame that torch the soul?
    Truth, when spoken, dies down to nothing.

  28. #88
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's the case or not but education establishments should have a duty to report all allegations to the proper authorities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I've heard as many examples of them essentially covering up rape accusations which were true as I have of them over zealously prosecuting accusations that turned out to be untrue. As you said, their priority is going to. ultimately, be their own reputation, not justice.

    I agree the way the criminal system treats rape victims is... not good, but I don't think farming the job out to education institutions is the answer.


    It absolutely isnt the answer, and yes if their starting quarterback for their multi million dollar football program gets caught in a he said she said rape accusation the university is far to involved by simple association to be trusted in making the right decision.

    I was simply giving insight into way students tend to go to the school first, and sometimes not to the police at all.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't know if it's the case or not but education establishments should have a duty to report all allegations to the proper authorities.
    Most of these kids are legally adults. The school should do everything they can to make sure the victim knows their rights and how to file a report but its not on the institution to push the victim into it.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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