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Thread: That whole #metoo thing

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    Default That whole #metoo thing

    I think about every person on this planet must have heard already about the #metoo phenomenon; but if you haven't it's women twittering about themselves being victims of sexual harassment.

    Now, I am hardly an expert on the mating rituals of heterosexuals and I think people who are guilty of sexual harassment should be punished. But I am wondering if making every unwanted attention from the opposite sex sexual harassment is really what women want. By setting the standard in a way that even the most tentative approach from anybody else than the perfect man of your dreams becomes sexual harassment you run the serious risk of chasing away even the attentions you might appreciate. To me it seems a quite bleak future in which you never will be touched because touching in itself is a risky shortcut to being branded a sexual offender. Shouldn't both women and men stand up to an attitude towards the physical part of men-women relations that would befit the most extreme islamists?
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    *shrug* The accounts I've seen described don't match that description, but even if they had we'd be talking about a lifetime of being subjected, constantly, to low-grade harassment. Overall, I definitely think it's positive that women are breaking the silence about this. I don't find your hyperbolic claims about our sexless dystopian future to be particularly credible.
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    What type of person goes around touching people for attention? Not suggesting that a touch is instantly sexual harassment, but dude. Bubble!
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Turks. Turks do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    *shrug* The accounts I've seen described don't match that description, but even if they had we'd be talking about a lifetime of being subjected, constantly, to low-grade harassment. Overall, I definitely think it's positive that women are breaking the silence about this. I don't find your hyperbolic claims about our sexless dystopian future to be particularly credible.
    Is it? I observe the difference in the way people approach other people's children in Turkey and The Netherlands. Where in one country people are all over any human being in the 'cute' years, even if they are complete strangers, in the other they keep a safe distance.

    Seems to me that what you describe as an unlikely outcome is already reality in part.
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Is it? I observe the difference in the way people approach other people's children in Turkey and The Netherlands. Where in one country people are all over any human being in the 'cute' years, even if they are complete strangers, in the other they keep a safe distance.

    Seems to me that what you describe as an unlikely outcome is already reality in part.
    I'm not sure what the approach to children has to do with this subject other than wrt the way girls tend to be treated from the time they enter puberty and onward.
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Just a clarification. Whereas a simple unwanted touch isn't sexual harassment, constant unwanted touches from hundreds of men over the course of a lifetime, of varying degrees of creepiness, combined with incessant catcalls and casually objectifying or otherwise wholly inappropriate remarks... well, it kinda wears people down. These aren't necessary components of human communication and socialization.
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    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Yeah, you really shouldn't be going around touching strangers all the time. I'd don't know why you'd think that was OK. I guess a tap on the shoulder or similar something might be appropriate in some circumstances, but otherwise? Nah. Don't.

    But the real common theme with these #metoo accounts (and indeed, others that predate #metoo) is what happens when the unwanted advance is what happens when the advance is turned down. HINT: the guy does not apologise and back off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Just a clarification. Whereas a simple unwanted touch isn't sexual harassment, constant unwanted touches from hundreds of men over the course of a lifetime, of varying degrees of creepiness, combined with incessant catcalls and casually objectifying or otherwise wholly inappropriate remarks... well, it kinda wears people down. These aren't necessary components of human communication and socialization.
    How do you know the difference if no difference is made?

    Full disclosure; I have experience totally inappropriate touching by people who I did not specifically wanted to be touched by. One can put oneself in the position of a victim (thus actually empowering the culprit) or give that person a slap on the wrist (literal or verbal) and keep power in one's own hands. I think that any situation where the balance of power was similar does not merit the label 'sexual harassment'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Yeah, you really shouldn't be going around touching strangers all the time. I'd don't know why you'd think that was OK. I guess a tap on the shoulder or similar something might be appropriate in some circumstances, but otherwise? Nah. Don't.

    But the real common theme with these #metoo accounts (and indeed, others that predate #metoo) is what happens when the unwanted advance is what happens when the advance is turned down. HINT: the guy does not apologise and back off.
    Asking an apology is a bit much; not backing off puts you right in the sexual harassment territory.

    Ever had a collegue massage your shoulders at a totally unexpected moment? I was both shocked at it happening, and enjoying it to an extent (non sexually) that it changed my thinking about being touched (though not my adversity to it). Seems to me that there is very little black and white what touching is good and bad as long as it happens in an exchange where power is not an element.
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    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Asking an apology is a bit much; not backing off puts you right in the sexual harassment territory.
    Some accounts I've read involve women being screamed at for rejecting a guy, followed home or even physically assaulted. Some of this stuff is outright chilling. Did you actually look at the hastag before you decided it was all women over-reacting to someone making a pass at them?

    Ever had a collegue massage your shoulders at a totally unexpected moment?
    No. I'd find that pretty weird, honestly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Some accounts I've read involve women being screamed at for rejecting a guy, followed home or even physically assaulted. Some of this stuff is outright chilling. Did you actually look at the hastag before you decided it was all women over-reacting to someone making a pass at them?

    The more I think about it the more I realize that people encounter the behavior that we are talking about. By making it all sexual harassment you don't do anyone a favor. Least of all real victims.



    No. I'd find that pretty weird, honestly.
    Yeah I did. And your example of being screamed at? Sorry buddy, but that is not sexual harassment. It is not polite behavior, but in my younger years I have been on the receiving end of the scorned admirer thing. You laugh it off if someone you didn't want in the first place starts calling you names for you rejecting him. You don't start assuming the title of victim of a loser like that 20 years after the fact.

    The more I think about it the more I realize that people simply encounter the behavior that we are talking about. By making it all sexual harassment you don't do anyone a favor. Least of all real victims of real
    sexual harassment.

    Also, the fact that you can come up with no other reaction than calling my collegues action 'weird' is exactly why I started this thread. Why should non-sexual physical contact in the work place automatically be weird?
    Last edited by Hazir; 10-24-2017 at 06:53 AM.
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    This is fairly clear evidence that men's experiences differ greatly from that of women. You aren't subjected to the same sort of treatment and certainly not as often. It's always easier to talk about things that don't actually affect you. What puzzles me is why you believe your experiences are relevant to the problems women face in their dealings with men. Even if we give credence to the notion that you are particularly evolved, philosophically and psychologically, we can't use you as a standard against which other people's behavior should be judged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Also, the fact that you can come up with no other reaction than calling my collegues action 'weird' is exactly why I started this thread. Why should non-sexual physical contact in the work place automatically be weird?
    Cultural norms differ. Outside of shaking hands and the odd hug, physical contact isn't appropriate in most corporate US workplaces.

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    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Also, the fact that you can come up with no other reaction than calling my collegues action 'weird' is exactly why I started this thread. Why should non-sexual physical contact in the work place automatically be weird?
    As soon as it is non-consensual (i.e. you didn't ask first) you can bet your ass that it is at least "weird".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Yeah I did. And your example of being screamed at? Sorry buddy, but that is not sexual harassment. It is not polite behavior, but in my younger years I have been on the receiving end of the scorned admirer thing. You laugh it off if someone you didn't want in the first place starts calling you names for you rejecting him. You don't start assuming the title of victim of a loser like that 20 years after the fact.
    Yeah, no, that is actually sexual harassment.

    Also, the fact that you can come up with no other reaction than calling my collegues action 'weird' is exactly why I started this thread. Why should non-sexual physical contact in the work place automatically be weird?
    We're not talking about a handshake here. I would find it pretty goddamn strange if someone started giving my a shoulder massage for no reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This is fairly clear evidence that men's experiences differ greatly from that of women. You aren't subjected to the same sort of treatment and certainly not as often. It's always easier to talk about things that don't actually affect you. What puzzles me is why you believe your experiences are relevant to the problems women face in their dealings with men. Even if we give credence to the notion that you are particularly evolved, philosophically and psychologically, we can't use you as a standard against which other people's behavior should be judged.
    You may be right that the experiences of straight men differ from those of women, you'd be well advised to not think the same about the experiences of gay men. Aside from hardcore sexual abuse I can easily match up with the most common #metoo's blow by blow. Grab them by the pussy? Try being touched up in the middle of a street by a complete stranger who you didn't invite in any way concievable to do so. If you want to drag your net of 'sexual harassment as wide as the bulk of the recent #metoo-ers are throwing it, you have zero reason to negate the actions I was subjected to on the mere basis of my gender.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Yeah, no, that is actually sexual harassment.



    We're not talking about a handshake here. I would find it pretty goddamn strange if someone started giving my a shoulder massage for no reason.
    No we're not talking about a handshake, but you automatically translated it into sexual behaviour. So what if it wasn't sexual at all? How do you logically fabricate sexual harassement out of that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Cultural norms differ. Outside of shaking hands and the odd hug, physical contact isn't appropriate in most corporate US workplaces.
    I'm largely current with American custom. The whole hugging thing makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. Often made worse by the preceding words 'I'm a hugger'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    As soon as it is non-consensual (i.e. you didn't ask first) you can bet your ass that it is at least "weird".
    Well, I wasn't asked so couldn't consent. So strictly speaking it was an invasion of my physical integrity. However, that doesn't automatically make it sexual harassment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You may be right that the experiences of straight men differ from those of women, you'd be well advised to not think the same about the experiences of gay men. Aside from hardcore sexual abuse I can easily match up with the most common #metoo's blow by blow. Grab them by the pussy? Try being touched up in the middle of a street by a complete stranger who you didn't invite in any way concievable to do so. If you want to drag your net of 'sexual harassment as wide as the bulk of the recent #metoo-ers are throwing it, you have zero reason to negate the actions I was subjected to on the mere basis of my gender.
    You may have been openly gay for most of your life but the typical gay man spends most of his life looking like a straight boy and then a straight man, surrounded mostly by other straight men and women. The experiences are not comparable. For every time you've been grabbed a woman whose life is otherwise similar to yours is likely to have been grabbed several times, in addition to the constant low-grade harassment and violations women are subjected to from puberty onwards. Even if that weren't the case, there is no reason why your personal feelings about constant harassment should be regarded as the ideal norm. I strongly urge you to reconsider this RBian approach to social problems (ie. one based mostly on your personal subjective experiences, anecdata, personal quirks and naive silver-bullet solutions based on the power of positive thinking).

    You keep repeating the claim that the experiences described by women are trivial. As I posted in the other thread, this is not a fair characterization of the experiences described by the women in my social media networks. If nothing else this should encourage some caution.
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    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    No we're not talking about a handshake, but you automatically translated it into sexual behaviour. So what if it wasn't sexual at all? How do you logically fabricate sexual harassement out of that?
    No, I said it was weird. Things can be weird but not sexual, you know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You may have been openly gay for most of your life but the typical gay man spends most of his life looking like a straight boy and then a straight man, surrounded mostly by other straight men and women. The experiences are not comparable. For every time you've been grabbed a woman whose life is otherwise similar to yours is likely to have been grabbed several times, in addition to the constant low-grade harassment and violations women are subjected to from puberty onwards. Even if that weren't the case, there is no reason why your personal feelings about constant harassment should be regarded as the ideal norm. I strongly urge you to reconsider this RBian approach to social problems (ie. one based mostly on your personal subjective experiences, anecdata, personal quirks and naive silver-bullet solutions based on the power of positive thinking).

    You keep repeating the claim that the experiences described by women are trivial. As I posted in the other thread, this is not a fair characterization of the experiences described by the women in my social media networks. If nothing else this should encourage some caution.
    You are mistaken. That whole low level thing starts early and it only lets off when you get old enough to no longer be desirable. If you think that 'looking like a man' protects you you need to think again. Predators also have zero difficulty spotting potential prey. Otherwise I'm not going to up the ante for the sake of this discussion; I have exposed enough of my personal trauma's. Come to think of it, maybe that is what irks me. The trivialization of sexual abuse by women who fancy being traumatized by having been whistled at 20 years ago.
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Sorry but I can't take you seriously because your characterization of these stories simply do not match what I've read, at all. You should also consider the possibility--indeed the high likelihood--that, just as you have traumatic experiences you wish to keep to yourself, these women have similarly or more traumatic experiences they are hesitant to speak of publicly at this point in time. The stories likely represent the tip of the iceberg, and the stuff I've read cannot be characterized as trivial. At the very least, they describe the kind of behavior that gave rise to the campaign in the first place (see Weinstein), which is appropriate. You might also want to consider the question of whether or not you should be held up as a role model for others to emulate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Sorry but I can't take you seriously because your characterization of these stories simply do not match what I've read, at all. You should also consider the possibility--indeed the high likelihood--that, just as you have traumatic experiences you wish to keep to yourself, these women have similarly or more traumatic experiences they are hesitant to speak of publicly at this point in time. The stories likely represent the tip of the iceberg, and the stuff I've read cannot be characterized as trivial. At the very least, they describe the kind of behavior that gave rise to the campaign in the first place (see Weinstein), which is appropriate. You might also want to consider the question of whether or not you should be held up as a role model for others to emulate.
    Interestingly it is your attitude which makes me understand why real victims of sexual abuse feel hesitation to tell their stories. The way you reacted in this thread was extremely dismissive when you were confronted with borderline sexual abuse. You were dismissive because I am a man. I bet you would not have dared to be so dismissive if a woman would have told you the same. You think you can afford to behave the same with a male rape victim? A man being raped isn't quite as bad because he doesn't have the female experience?

    I also didn't put myself up as a role model. I suggested that we hesitate when people drape themself in victimhood for trivial reasons as it trivializes the experience of real victims and because it re-inforces a type of behavior between people in which even necessary physical contact becomes suspect.
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    The idea that women react to non-sexual touching and non-aggressive and one off unwelcome romantic advances as if they were sexual assault is an MRA fever dream, as is the notion the this is anything to do with what's going on with #metoo or anything similar.
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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You may have been openly gay for most of your life but the typical gay man spends most of his life looking like a straight boy and then a straight man, surrounded mostly by other straight men and women.
    I would strongly suggest that you don't presume to lecture us about what the "typical gay man" experiences growing up or through most of their life, hetero. You just did EXACTLY what you accuse Hazir of doing.
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I think an element of common sense is reasonable here.

    I've heard some suggest that workplace relationships should be forbidden, or relationships between employer/employee or other "positions of power". My relationship with my wife would have been forbidden then, as would many other marriages and other relationships I know. Flirting should not be forbidden either.

    But categorically no means no and all forms of harassment/abuse are wrong.
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Interestingly it is your attitude which makes me understand why real victims of sexual abuse feel hesitation to tell their stories. The way you reacted in this thread was extremely dismissive when you were confronted with borderline sexual abuse. You were dismissive because I am a man. I bet you would not have dared to be so dismissive if a woman would have told you the same. You think you can afford to behave the same with a male rape victim? A man being raped isn't quite as bad because he doesn't have the female experience?
    Mate, I have no desire to carry on a discussion about your personal experiences, those are not any of my business. I only wanted to say that you cannot use your personal experiences and an extremely selective reading of other people's accounts to dismiss their experiences as being trivial. You cannot use yourself as the yardstick for determining whether or not someone else's suffering is legitimate. You cannot declare your own capacity to endure/overcome harassment or assault to be the norm and then scorn women--or men--for failing to meet your personal standards. My intention was not to dismiss your experiences but to challenge your dismissal of other people's experiences. If my words had any other effect--and I recognize that it was foolish of me to fall into the trap of presumptively comparing experiences--then I can only offer a belated apology, but I cannot agree with your position that the stories being shared under the #metoo umbrella somehow trivialize or are themselves trivialized by other, worse stories.

    To answer your loaded question about male survivors of rape, no, I don't think it's somehow "better" or "easier", nor do I think it's more appropriate for a professional to offer men the kind of tough-breaks style of coaching you've endorsed here than it would be to offer the same to a woman. I also do not believe you have the slightest interest in my opinions on this subject. That said, in real life, it would also be inappropriate to engage in a discussion like this in the first place. In real life, I do not believe it's appropriate or productive to theorize about real suffering, or attempt to compare one person's suffering to another's. As I have said elsewhere, I make exceptions for discussions on this forum where the rules of engagement are in very many respects different from rl.

    I also didn't put myself up as a role model. I suggested that we hesitate when people drape themself in victimhood for trivial reasons as it trivializes the experience of real victims and because it re-inforces a type of behavior between people in which even necessary physical contact becomes suspect.
    You're free to hold whatever views you like but obviously I disagree both with your characterization of #metoo as well as with your reasoning and your predictions. peace
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I would strongly suggest that you don't presume to lecture us about what the "typical gay man" experiences growing up or through most of their life, hetero. You just did EXACTLY what you accuse Hazir of doing.
    Yes, yes I did. It was a mistake to fall into that trap.
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