That whole #metoo thing

[Aimless]

I would strongly suggest that you don't presume to lecture us about what the "typical gay man" experiences growing up or through most of their life, hetero. You just did EXACTLY what you accuse Hazir of doing.

Yes, yes I did. It was a mistake to fall into that trap.

[Hazir]

Yes, yes I did. It was a mistake to fall into that trap.

It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.

[Enoch the Red]

It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.

I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.

[Aimless]

I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.

I only grope myself, and never in public, but Hazir's and Fuzzy's criticism of those parts of my posts is not without merit. My intentions notwithstanding, it's not unreasonable to interpret my posts as being dismissive of someone's personal experiences with trauma, based on gender-related presumptions etc. In theory, a case can be made for either view--see many more-or-less toxic internal debates within LGBTQ+ community about who has the roughest go of it--but it wasn't appropriate in this discussion and I was wrong to take that approach and especially wrong to be so dismissive.

[Hazir]

I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.

Ah right, so now we are going to talk as if only the Weinsteins of this world are the problem? You don't actually have to grab someone in the crotch to be part of the problem.

[Enoch the Red]

Ah right, so now we are going to talk as if only the Weinsteins of this world are the problem? You don't actually have to grab someone in the crotch to be part of the problem.

So, perhaps you can illuminate me. How is Aimless part of the problem?

I only grope myself, and never in public, but Hazir's and Fuzzy's criticism of those parts of my posts is not without merit. My intentions notwithstanding, it's not unreasonable to interpret my posts as being dismissive of someone's personal experiences with trauma, based on gender-related presumptions etc. In theory, a case can be made for either view--see many more-or-less toxic internal debates within LGBTQ+ community about who has the roughest go of it--but it wasn't appropriate in this discussion and I was wrong to take that approach and especially wrong to be so dismissive.

Someone can be wrong, even dismissive, and still not be part of the problem.

[Hazir]

So, perhaps you can illuminate me. How is Aimless part of the problem?



Someone can be wrong, even dismissive, and still not be part of the problem.

I suggest you read my reply to him.

As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity. Pretty much how you don't tell a woman how she wasn't really raped since she wore slutty clothes.

[Steely Glint]

As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity.

And yet this seems to have been your entire purpose in starting this thread: to tell women posting under metoo that what happened to them wasn't sexual harassment.

[Enoch the Red]

I suggest you read my reply to him.

As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity. Pretty much how you don't tell a woman how she wasn't really raped since she wore slutty clothes.

And if your only interaction with Aimless was this single exchange, and you knew nothing else about him, you might be justified in believing that. As this is not the case, and you both have long posting histories here, with many personal exchanges with the other, might it not be just to give him the benefit of the doubt. Even if this conversation existed in a vacuum, I am not convinced that being callous or dismissive makes someone part of the problem.

[Aimless]

As a clarification; when someone, anyone, opens up about a personal experience which, by pretty much every definition is sexual harassment you don't start explaining to them that what happened to them was not actual sexual harassment because they have some magical male immunity.

That was certainly not what I wanted to say with that response to your post, and I can only apologize for being a dick. I haven't yet made that mistake in real life and I hope I never do.

[Aimless]

It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.

I'm sorry but remain skeptical of your dismissal of other people's experiences. Your characterization of their accounts remains as wrong now as it was when you started this thread. You can continue to preach your "suck it up" advice to victims/survivors where you can find them, it's no business of mine. If you're willing to acknowledge that the stories shared under #metoo are legit then obviously you should have no problems withdrawing from your initial position, regardless of how annoyed you were by my later posts. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, then obviously you don't have a leg to stand on when you criticize me for not taking sufficient care in responding to your posts. Do you now acknowledge the #metoo stories as being legit or don't you? You can't have it both ways. I can't help but find it curious that you accuse me of taking an absolutist position while bringing extremism and hyperbole to the table, but this is obviously nothing new.

[Hazir]

I'm sorry but remain skeptical of your dismissal of other people's experiences. Your characterization of their accounts remains as wrong now as it was when you started this thread. You can continue to preach your "suck it up" advice to victims/survivors where you can find them, it's no business of mine. If you're willing to acknowledge that the stories shared under #metoo are legit then obviously you should have no problems withdrawing from your initial position, regardless of how annoyed you were by my later posts. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, then obviously you don't have a leg to stand on when you criticize me for not taking sufficient care in responding to your posts. Do you now acknowledge the #metoo stories as being legit or don't you? You can't have it both ways. I can't help but find it curious that you accuse me of taking an absolutist position while bringing extremism and hyperbole to the table, but this is obviously nothing new.

No buddy, you lost your credibility the moment when you started to tell me why my experiences didn't count in a a discourse about the validation of people's personal experiences.

[Aimless]

No buddy, you lost your credibility the moment when you started to tell me why my experiences didn't count in a a discourse about the validation of people's personal experiences.

So long as you attempt to use your experiences to dismiss other people's experiences, you will be wrong. No matter how wrong or reprehensible or otherwise deficient I turn out to be, this fact will not change. What you do with that fact is entirely up to you.

[Hazir]

So long as you attempt to use your experiences to dismiss other people's experiences, you will be wrong. No matter how wrong or reprehensible or otherwise deficient I turn out to be, this fact will not change. What you do with that fact is entirely up to you.

You are the one who was dismissive of my experiences while at the same moment demanding of me that I would validate the exact same experiences by other people because YOU had decided that I as a MAN could not be as much as a victim as a woman. If you had any moral hygiene about you your only reaction to what I said should have been to acknowledge that what I experienced was actual sexual harassment, not telling me that my experience didn't matter so much. You could then have maybe convinced me that my sucking it up was something not everybody is capable of. But you didn't choose to do that, you chose to tell me that what I experienced didn't count.

Your attitude is exactly why male victims are afraid to tell about their experiences; experiences that can never be quite authentic since the fact that they have a dick should have made them immune to sexual abuse. I repeat, you are part of the problem, trying to act as if you are part of the solution because you understand so perfectly what women experience. I suggest you first start trying to understand a bit better to understand what men experience before you declare yourself an expert on the opposite sex.

[Aimless]

You are the one who was dismissive of my experiences while at the same moment demanding of me that I would validate the exact same experiences by other people because YOU had decided that I as a MAN could not be as much as a victim as a woman. If you had any moral hygiene about you your only reaction to what I said should have been to acknowledge that what I experienced was actual sexual harassment, not telling me that my experience didn't matter so much. You could then have maybe convinced me that my sucking it up was something not everybody is capable of. But you didn't choose to do that, you chose to tell me that what I experienced didn't count.

Your attitude is exactly why male victims are afraid to tell about their experiences; experiences that can never be quite authentic since the fact that they have a dick should have made them immune to sexual abuse. I repeat, you are part of the problem, trying to act as if you are part of the solution because you understand so perfectly what women experience. I suggest you first start trying to understand a bit better to understand what men experience before you declare yourself an expert on the opposite sex.

Again, your experiences do not justify your dismissal of other people's experiences. I do not know how many other ways in which I can say the same thing. What you experience counts, no-one can say otherwise, and it was not my intention to say that your experiences do not count. But if by "count" you mean "can be used to dismiss other people's experiences as trivial or their reactions as exaggerated" then no. If that's what you mean, you're wrong. And that was all I wanted to say with those statements.

A man can be just as much a victim as a woman, but that still doesn't mean you can dismiss someone else's experiences. Granted you claimed that victimhood was a matter of choice, which is about 50% horseshit, but even if it weren't and you made the "choice" to be a victim, your victimhood would not justify your dismissal of other people's experiences. Ffs, your solution to these problems--to the minimal extent that you even considered them to be legitimate--was to give an offender a "slap on the wrist" and/or essentially suck it up and change one's mindset. Are you shitting me? How many times is a person supposed to expose themselves to the risk of a violent, aggressive or socially/financially damaging retaliation in order to train people in their environment to behave using the slap-on-the-wrist method? How much is a person required to endure, according to the Book of Hazir?

Now, I can only apologize for saying something that clearly hurt and angered you, which was not my intention. I am genuinely sorry for that. I regret my misguided approach to this discussion, it was a blatant error. But stop trying to use your personal experiences to trivialize other people's experiences. I don't understand "so perfectly what women experience" any more than I understand perfectly what you experience or you understand perfectly what anyone else experiences. And for that reason, I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss someone else's experiences with harassment or assault.