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Thread: Immigration cauldron boils over in Arizona

  1. #31
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    In Russia, police have the right to stop you and ask for your passport. Isn't it a democratic country?
    Damn straight it is. And anyone who says different will be punished to the fullest extent of the law Putin's imagination.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I didn't say it was the solution. But what abuse is already happening that are you talking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Already starting...
    I see you've found it on your own...
    . . .

  3. #33

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I don't follow the connection.
    It means they'll either fix the laws with regulations or litigate on civil rights violations.

    Has anyone mentioned amnesty options yet?

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It means they'll either fix the laws with regulations or litigate on civil rights violations.

    Has anyone mentioned amnesty options yet?
    That's basically what Obama's "reform" is. If it wasn't, he wouldn't need to ask for another law -- just send more agents to the border instead. Watch...

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    I see you've found it on your own...
    I never said there wouldn't be goofs. I said explicitly that stuff like this would happen and there would be lawsuits.

    By abuses, I thought you meant mass round-ups of "brown" people in parking lots and such.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    In Russia, police have the right to stop you and ask for your passport. Isn't it a democratic country?
    Netherlands are a democratic country, but sadly the police can ask you for your ID here (but only if they have a real reason), and if you can't you get a 50€ fine.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  8. #38
    Via my One-World-Socialist-Government friend's Facebook feed...

    San Francisco calling for a boycott of Arizona

    John Wildermuth, Chronicle Staff Writer

    Monday, April 26, 2010

    (04-26) 18:35 PDT San Francisco -- San Francisco's supervisors are calling for a sweeping boycott of Arizona in the wake of that state's harsh new rules aimed at illegal immigrants.

    A resolution that will go before the board Tuesday will call for San Francisco to end any and all contracts with Arizona-based companies and to stop doing business with the state.

    "We want to send a message," Supervisor David Campos told a rally on the steps of City Hall this morning. "There are consequences when you target a whole people."

    Last Friday, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed a law making it a crime for an immigrant to be in the state without proof of legal residency and requiring police to seek out and detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally.

    The law, which will take effect this summer, is certain to face legal challenges. President Obama has called the bill "misguided" and ordered the Justice Department to determine whether it violates civil rights.

    There's no way to tell yet how a boycott of Arizona would affect San Francisco.

    "We're trying to figure that out now," Campos said. "We do know that we won't be sending any city employees to conferences in Arizona."

    City Attorney Dennis Herrera also called for a wide-ranging boycott of Arizona and pledged to have attorneys in his office work with the city to identify contracts with Arizona companies and help break those contracts where possible.

    The boycott resolution won't be the only immigration-based measure on the board's agenda Tuesday. The supervisors also are expected to pass a resolution condemning audits by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement designed to force local employers to fire undocumented workers.

    The resolution calls for Congress to place a moratorium on "piecemeal" immigration enforcement efforts and encourages Congress and the president to pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill "that prioritizes keeping families together, upholding civil and human rights and promoting economic justice."

    E-mail John Wildermuth at jwildermuth@sfchronicle.com

    Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz0mGOOfBsa

  9. #39
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Netherlands are a democratic country, but sadly the police can ask you for your ID here (but only if they have a real reason), and if you can't you get a 50€ fine.
    ID's different. At least over here. People typically carry their driver's license or a state ID with them, but the documents which prove citizenship/legal status are stored somewhere safe, because they're a bitch and a half to replace if they get lost or stolen.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Oh right, a driver's license, european ID card, passport or immigration papers are okay here. The crap thing is that if you don't have a driver's license, like me, you need to renew your ID card every 5 years which costs around 40€
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  11. #41
    The resolution calls for Congress to place a moratorium on "piecemeal" immigration enforcement efforts and encourages Congress and the president to pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill "that prioritizes keeping families together, upholding civil and human rights and promoting economic justice."
    Ah, there's the amnesty part. Or at least that 'path to citizenship' that no one likes to talk about.

  12. #42
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Or at least that 'path to citizenship' that no one likes to talk about.
    You mean the new, "knock up an illegal immigrant to get amnesty" path?

    Yeah, they clearly didn't think that through, did they? Your government at work.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    You mean the new, "knock up an illegal immigrant to get amnesty" path?

    Yeah, they clearly didn't think that through, did they? Your government at work.
    Figuring out what to do with illegal parents of legal citizens, especially younger kids, is partly why this keeps getting shelved.

  14. #44
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Because, God knows, we can't just let any peaceful person into the country to engage in voluntary commerce with us, because that would just be immoral.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Because, God knows, we can't just let any peaceful person into the country to engage in voluntary commerce with us, because that would just be immoral.
    Who are you addressing here?

  16. #46
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    We've been over this before. If you're gonna post drunk, you need to be funnier.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  17. #47
    I'm not drunk.

    It just seems you're making assumptions about my personal views on immigration, when I haven't really posted them. Whether it's worker visas, amnesty, 'pathways to legal citizenship', payroll deductions or ID requirements....all I've said is the AZ bill leaves too much up in the air and is open for litigation.

    It also puts local police in a tough position.

  18. #48
    Frack, woke up this morning and looked at Facebook and now all my friends are joining groups about this "racist" bill. I hope this doesn't turn into the next health care debate...

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dread
    woke up this morning
    Got yourself a gun?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  20. #50
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I'm not drunk.

    It just seems you're making assumptions about my personal views on immigration, when I haven't really posted them. Whether it's worker visas, amnesty, 'pathways to legal citizenship', payroll deductions or ID requirements....all I've said is the AZ bill leaves too much up in the air and is open for litigation.
    Knock it off. Don't be so blatantly disingenuous - it takes all the sport out of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It also puts local police in a tough position.
    Granted, increasing the risk of local cops (or that Sheriff Arpaio, in particular) of getting gunned down is definitely a good thing... but the huge downside of the bill more than overshadows that minor benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Frack, woke up this morning and looked at Facebook and now all my friends are joining groups about this "racist" bill. I hope this doesn't turn into the next health care debate...
    Huh, another good reason not to use social networking sites. Just when I thought there were too many reasons already.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Myers
    I know there’s some people in Arizona worried that Obama is acting like Hitler, but could we all agree that there’s nothing more Nazi than saying "Show me your papers?"
    There’s never been a World War II movie that didn’t include the line "show me your papers." It’s their catchphrase. Every time someone says "show me your papers," Hitler’s family gets a residual check.
    So heads up, Arizona; that’s fascism. I know, I know, it’s a dry fascism, but it’s still fascism.

  22. #52
    Meh, haven't we had ID checks when you get pulled over by the police for years? Its not a new precedent, though I'd still say its a step down a path we don't want to take. Like Cain said, heaven forbid we allow people to come into the nation and take the jobs we won't do...

    Though I hear there's a border violence angle to this as well...

  23. #53
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinich View Post
    Meh, haven't we had ID checks when you get pulled over by the police for years?
    Sure, but before this, a cop couldn't walk up to you when you're walking down the street, or eating lunch, or whatever, and ask you for ID on suspicion of being Latino an illegal immigrant.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  24. #54
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Sure, but before this, a cop couldn't walk up to you when you're walking down the street, or eating lunch, or whatever, and ask you for ID on suspicion of being Latino an illegal immigrant.
    I was under the impression that this was not the case. That the inquiry of citizenship had to be secondary to another 'investigation/suspicion'.

    As in you get pulled over for speeding and cop sees 10 people in the back of the covered truck, and no one speaks English...

    I could be wrong.

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I was under the impression that this was not the case. That the inquiry of citizenship had to be secondary to another 'investigation/suspicion'.

    As in you get pulled over for speeding and cop sees 10 people in the back of the covered truck, and no one speaks English...

    I could be wrong.
    How does it go with reporting of robbery/rape?
    I can also see this quickly turning into a "broken tag light" line that police already use with racial profiling when they want to know how a black man is driving a pimped Bimmer.

  26. #56
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I was under the impression that this was not the case. That the inquiry of citizenship had to be secondary to another 'investigation/suspicion'.
    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    I can also see this quickly turning into a "broken tag light" line that police already use with racial profiling when they want to know how a black man is driving a pimped Bimmer.
    It's just another bullshit "driving while black" charge that will inevitably be used as an excuse to harass and fine minorities. For example, that truck driver Dread posted the story about.

    "No, your honor, I didn't question the defendant on suspicion of being Latino... he was acting suspiciously, like he was an illegal alien, so I asked to see his papers, frisked him, searched his person, car and home, without having to worry about that pesky constitution thing."
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  27. #57
    I'm torn on the issue of immigration still. They obviously don't belong here, but they are already here, and its part of America, no matter how you spin it.

    But if you're going to attack the issue, you go after the people enabling the illegals to make a living here. You go after the companies that are hiring illegals, you give those enablers jail time, not fines. You don't turn it into a race thing, you don't strip away the rights of a group of people because some of them might be causing a problem. You don't force some residents to carry identification cards because they are different.

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    But I just really despise this American attitude of "woohoo, cheap labor to help me put up a deck/clean the office toilets/strangle me in the shower while I pleasure myself," "land of the free," "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." but brown people are stealing all our jobs (which we wouldn't do anyway), so we need to deport them ASAP! One or the other, you stupid fucking cunts - you don't get to have it both ways.

    Honestly, every time I hear some white asshole whining about illegal immigration I want to force him to clean the office toilets for $3 an hour and then tattoo the below cartoon on the inside of his fucking eyelids.

    Totally agreed. I loved that cartoon when it first came out.

    One thing though. There are generally two camps from the right on this issue: a) the business community (builders, restaurants, farmers) who benefit hugely from having uber hard-working employees whom they can underpay and don't pay taxes on. These guys aren't hypocritical, just self-serving. b) The ignoramuses who don't understand that some sort of immigrant has always done those jobs. The worst are the blue collar types who think immigrants are stealing their jobs, but aren't willing to do what the immigrants actually do (or work as hard). Technically these guys aren't hypocritical either, just stupid and/or ignorant. Wonderful prey for xenophobic right-wing ideologues.

    Liberals generally just stay the hell out of the way, because any time illegal immigrants come up, Democrats win as the Republicans split. Part of the 2006 electoral swing was Bush's unpopularity, but I'm convinced that part was the xenophobic idiocy from the right, which drove a lot of good Catholic Latinos (natural born Republicans) to vote Democrat. The GOP knows that, too, but they can't always keep that xenophobic wing quiet.

    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    In Russia, police have the right to stop you and ask for your passport. Isn't it a democratic country?
    Praying you are joking....

    All civil countries allow law enforcement to check IDs, under certain very restricted circumstances. And circumventing said circumstances leads to charges being thrown out. At least for most crimes. But it doesn't for illegal immigration, because regardless of how the person was first apprehended, the facts remain that a) he is still there, all illegal-like, and b) people raise holy hell if he is released because of due process FAIL. Thus, illegal immigrants are denied due process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Via my One-World-Socialist-Government friend's Facebook feed...
    Look, we all know that wingnuts do stupid stuff. Do you gain something by posting their antics? Is this a Lewkowskian attempt at quoting the DU to discredit the 98% of the political spectrum leftwards of him? Or is it an attempt to get us to lose respect for you, since you have friends like this?

    Didn't the City of Berkeley vote to condemn the Iraq war early on? BFD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    How does it go with reporting of robbery/rape?
    I can also see this quickly turning into a "broken tag light" line that police already use with racial profiling when they want to know how a black man is driving a pimped Bimmer.
    1) EXACTLY.

    2) I'm doubtlessly revealing a profound ignorance, but what is a "Bimmer?"

  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    2) I'm doubtlessly revealing a profound ignorance, but what is a "Bimmer?"
    A BMW, or any car, thats (on average) above the pay grade of a certain class of people, or the neighborhood it is seen in.

  30. #60
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    The part that I don't understand how a lot of people in the US can't differentiate between 'having no legal status' and 'being a criminal'. From there it's a small step to dehumanizing the subjects of the debate. I can understand if people want some sort of regulation of immigration, but this nonsense of illegal aliens as criminals is really too much.
    Congratulations America

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