Looks more like active vs passive to me. Please elaborate.Originally Posted by GGT
BTW it's noon and I am getting hungry.
Looks more like active vs passive to me. Please elaborate.
BTW it's noon and I am getting hungry.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Then you're thinking of cut and dried meats, like beef jerky. Or protein grinds that need to be wetted to be eaten, like egg powder.
Artists usually use a wet medium (watercolor) and dry it before cutting. But wet ink molds can be cut fresh.
Flowers and herbs are usually cut and then dried. Unless an artist is doing a wet ink impression of a dried leaf.
Scientists can have wet slides, or dried cadaver tissue they have to wet.
I lost my initial post for some reason, it just vanished.
We're relying on anecdotes of having "spent time in a border state?"Are you actually arguing that our border with Mexico hasn't become more permeable and violent in the past decade? When was the last time you spent some time in a border state dude.
No, I'm not convinced that they are more porous or more crime-ridden than 10 years ago. Or 20 years ago. Convince me!
I'm not convinced that our standards are low. Plus, this bill isn't a border integrity bill, so your harping on the border continues to be a straw man.I don't think we should have low standards when it comes to border security, whether our border is gigantic or not.
Watch out, or I'll accuse you of being a tatooed trucker from Alaska again.
PS I still think "cut and dried" is best. It refers to something that is a don deal> past tense, right? So unless you say "we are going to cut and dry this," I'm not sure it works well.
Be careful, we'll end up with another pseudo-vacation thread.We're relying on anecdotes of having "spent time in a border state?"
I should clarify that porous and violent are two different metrics. But you read the New Yorker about as religiously as I do -- didn't you read the recent article about Mexican drug wars?We're relying on anecdotes of having "spent time in a border state?"
No, I'm not convinced that they are more porous or more crime-ridden than 10 years ago. Or 20 years ago. Convince me!
Where do you think the demand (and the trafficking) is coming from? And in case I haven't made this clear, I have close family in a border state.
And a lot of leftist and gay friends (these groups need not overlap), uh huh. It's all so convenient, isn't it.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I know a lot of Europeans, so I know all about Europe.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
My point isn't that I'm an expert, but that I have reason to pay attention to things that Tear clearly isn't paying attention to. He has to be in a hole if he hasn't noticed the changes on our border.
"The List".......http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/us...h.html?_r=1&hp
That's just creepy.Each page of the list is headed with the words “Illegal Immigrants” and each entry contains details about the individuals listed — from their address and telephone number to their date of birth and, in the case of pregnant women, their due dates. The letter was received by law enforcement and media outlets on Monday and Tuesday. A spokeswoman for Gov. Gary R. Herbert said Wednesday that an investigation was under way to see if state employees might have been involved in releasing the private information.
A memorandum accompanying the list said it was from Concerned Citizens of the United States. It urged immediate deportation proceedings against the people listed, as well as publication of their names by the news media.
Yes, I've read that and other articles about the anarchy in Mexico. It's very sad. Weapons smuggling is arguably as much of a problem as the drugs themselves (OK, probably not quite so much, but the ready availability of almost any heavy weapon is disconcerting.)
That doesn't mean that the border is more porous and violent now than before. Is the volume of drugs somehow different now than 20 or 30 years ago? Is a higher fraction coming across the Mexican border than before? A lot of these have historically come by boat or air. Has this dynamic changed radically, so it's coming across the land border?
And, a point I've made multiple times now, how does racial profiling factory workers in Phoenix do shit about either the drugs or violence? This is a red herring, Dread. A straw man. You're setting up the "oh noes, violence and drugs across the border" argument to support a bill whose purpose is sending illegal nannies and factory workers home. If you want to talk drug and violence control, I'm all for it. You might not find me as far from you as you think. But that's not this bill. Please don't insult us by acting like it is.
Well, the demand is in America, and the trafficking happens from Florida to San Diego. Me, I think we need to crack down in New Orleans.Where do you think the demand (and the trafficking) is coming from?
Cut it out, man. This bill is not about drugs or violence. Anybody who says so is either just ignorant or lying.
I have close family in NYC. And they are Jews. But at least I know that my knowledge of NY political issues and Judaism that come through them have been filtered through somebody else's brain.And in case I haven't made this clear, I have close family in a border state.
Wouldn't you find it insulting if I started speaking authoritatively about Judaism because some beloved relatives are Jews?
I've read nothing that argues that our border is that different than it was 10 years ago. I know that Mexico has become much more violent. Have their been radical changes in drug running avenues? Because land shipment across the border has always been a relatively small fraction.
What I do know is that the economy got tight, and people are now scapegoating "those damn illegals who are stealing jobs!" (most of which the unemployed won't do). A more valid point is that illegals may be straining social services, like hospitals. But even that seems like a reasonable exchange for the exploitative labor practices that build the local economy. If people were saying "we need to make them legal so they pay taxes and get treated fairly as employees," I'd be much more likely to listen to them. But this shit is just old, white, conservative retirees from other parts of the country scapegoating little brown people who don't speak English. "Trash," as Lewk likes to call them.
I don't have a problem cracking down on employers I don't see why we don't do both. Even if the we dry up all the illegal immigration for work (which won't happen, I mean what your going to have random folks who want yard work done require SS cards?) others will still try to cross the border. Drug runners and terrorists for example.But if you're going to crack down on illegal immigration, the employers is the only rational point to do so. Much better than building a thousand mile wall and staffing it with many tens of thousands of armed enforcers, and much better than fascist pulling people over and asking for papers.
Proof?I just don't give a shit that they are here illegally. They drive our economy, they don't do any harm. Immigrant families tend to be a lot less violent than actual citizens.
They don't do any harm huh. Not one of them?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/13...july-th-party/
For more comprehensive look -
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org...mevictims.html
Has nothing to do with speaking Spanish or skin color. It has everything to do with NOT speaking English.Ah, the truth comes out. You don't like brown people who speak Spanish. Guess what, ace? They work harder than good white Americans like you.
Top what? Not working hours and hours of menial work? Next thing you'll be telling us about how great farmers are because they get up at the crack of dawn. As the pointy haired boss would say.... "Work smarter not harder." A strong work ethic is great, we need more of that in this country. Manual labor will almost always be a dead end career path, unless there is risk of injury doing it.I was just talking to our Costa Rican custodian as she emptied trash cans last night. She was saying how tired she was because she started house cleaning at 9, and then reported to work for her second job as a custodian at 4:30. Top that, you snotty bigot.
I'll bet Lewk is a horrible tipper.
Tear, for the third time, I'm not defending the specifics of this law here. Please don't insult me by trying to paint me as some kind of anti-immigrant reactionary. My point is that our southern border has sustained, long-term and escalating problems. And as long as these problems exist, laws like this will be popular and get passed because we can't have a mature debate about immigration if our southern border barely exists.
I find it mystifying that so many people don't object to the breakdown in security on our border, and look down their noses at people who do find this to be a pretty fundamental issue. Secure and regulated borders is a pretty important role for a national government.
The reason I brought up my family was to avoid saying something uncomfortable, personal and judgmental towards you. I didn't want to make an unfounded judgement of you, but my suspicion is that you've been confined to a certain area for a number of years due to your health problem. But one can make a few visits a year to southern Texas, Arizona or New Mexico and hear people getting more and more agitated over this situation. I think many of these folks would love a simple path to citizenship, but they are being pushed towards more radical views (and supporting laws like this) because the federal government doesn't seem to take this issue too seriously.
Federal policies and state laws aside.....I wonder what border states would do if suddenly ALL their illegals vanished, went back home, packed their bags and left?
I don't think they'd like their local economies imploding, even if they think it'd be temporary. Maybe all the unemployed citizens would rush to pick produce in the fields or process pig in a slaughterhouse, for minimum wage and no benefits. But I doubt it. Maybe they have enough legal children of legal parents to keep all the schools open and teachers teaching, and tax payers paying taxes. But I doubt that, too.
There have been a few federal raids on farms and food production, targeting both the illegal employee and the employer who hires them. When these workers are deported and farms and plants have to shut down, whole communities feel the domino effect. The grocers, gas stations, land lords, restauranteurs, schools---everyone.
I think they'd better be very careful in how to catch the drug traffickers and violent criminals, and distinguish them from the workers that keep their towns alive and functional.
1. Charged with rape
2. Are you presenting this as evidence that illegal immigrants are more dangerous than various categories of American citizens? Or are you merely opposing the notion that no illegal immigrants are dangerous?
Dude, seriously. Contrast those anecdotes with crime in general in your country and then ask yourself how important illegal immigrants are to your criminal problems, on the whole.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Read Tears original remark.Dude, seriously. Contrast those anecdotes with crime in general in your country and then ask yourself how important illegal immigrants are to your criminal problems, on the whole.
In any event its worth noting that every illegal immigrant has broken one federal law....they don't do any harm.
Still, Minx's suggestion was a good one.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Yes, I know, but I chose to interpret that remark charitably because the uncharitable interpretation--that he means no illegal immigrants ever do any harm--is both wrong and useless. Tear's an educated man, he knows better than to really claim that no illegal immigrants ever do anyone any harm. It's a claim that is impossible to prove and incredibly easy to disprove
This is true, but you yourself are not above having opinions on the utility and on the implementation of various laws.In any event its worth noting that every illegal immigrant has broken one federal law....
I don't know how notable it is to point out that every illegal immigrant has broken a federal law by virtue of being illegal immigrants in a discussion about whether or not your approach towards illegal immigrants is wrong
You're for the legalisation of many (if not all?) drugs, so how do you feel about people who break laws by using pot?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
You're asking the guy who thinks it's virtuous to shoot a toothpaste shop-lifter in the back?
20 bucks says "rape in the prison shower"
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I think it may be reasonable to expect his views on the two issues to be different. Theft is a crime that Lewk thinks is very wrong. But Lewk, iirc, doesn't think it should be illegal to smoke pot.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Perhaps. But possession of weed (in excess of certain amounts, depending on state law) can be a felony. A federal violation that can garner several years in prison.
He wouldn't shoot a pot head in the back, because he thinks our drug laws are whacked, but he'd shoot a toothpaste thief, because he thinks property law trumps all? That's some pretty fucked up morality.
1) Since it's pretty much unrelated, why do you keep bringing it up in the context of this law?
2) I'm not convinced that the security has changed. I could be wrong. But your "I know that the border is significantly less secure because I have family in Arizona and I travel there" doesn't work.
Dread, you seem to be missing my point. I agree with you that maintaining a certain amount of border security is critical. What I'm not convinced about is that it has changed substantially in recent years, or that we have more violence or more drug trafficking across it. I could be dead wrong, and am open to somebody showing me otherwise. But on push button issues like this, I'll be damned if I trust some anecdote.I find it mystifying that so many people don't object to the breakdown in security on our border, and look down their noses at people who do find this to be a pretty fundamental issue. Secure and regulated borders is a pretty important role for a national government.
THAT'S what I'm saying, not that you're reactionary or something.
I appreciate the sensitivity, but it's unwarranted. If I were healthy and running ultramarathons, I wouldn't be traveling to the southwest. Unless you're talking outdoors activities, the place is uninteresting to me. I went there plenty when I lived in Cali. The retirement culture isn't exactly a big draw.The reason I brought up my family was to avoid saying something uncomfortable, personal and judgmental towards you. I didn't want to make an unfounded judgement of you, but my suspicion is that you've been confined to a certain area for a number of years due to your health problem. But one can make a few visits a year to southern Texas, Arizona or New Mexico and hear people getting more and more agitated over this situation. I think many of these folks would love a simple path to citizenship, but they are being pushed towards more radical views (and supporting laws like this) because the federal government doesn't seem to take this issue too seriously.
1) This bill specifically avoids employers. Which tells me that it's a horse shit sop for bigoted voters, not a legitimate effort to do something about the issue.
2) I don't want to do both because pulling people over because of how they look and demanding papers is what totalitarian governments do. I realize you'd get hard at this thought as long as the totalitarian government doesn't impact businesses.
1) But decreasing it by, say, 90% wouldn't suffice? Even most yard workers work for a company. It's not like they roam neighborhoods going door to door asking people if they need a mow and a trim.Even if the we dry up all the illegal immigration for work (which won't happen, I mean what your going to have random folks who want yard work done require SS cards?) others will still try to cross the border. Drug runners and terrorists for example.Go to any construction site in the US and there's a good chance half of the latino guys you see are illegal. Same with farms. THAT'S where the money is.
2) This has nothing to do with border security, so I'll assume your just a lying sack of shit for bringing up drugs and terrorists here.
My hypothesis: as a community, the illegals commit no greater frequency of violent crime than their direct control group. Is that specific enough for you, you snake?Proof?
They don't do any harm huh. Not one of them?
Yeah, there were lots of "black boy rapes white girl" accusations during civil rights as well. Such tends to accompany scapegoating and bigotry. You got something other than accusations, anecdotes and innuendo? Probably not. Bigots tend to rely on whispered lies, not facts.
Give me a reason why I should consider this as anything other than a bigot's (or ignoramus') rationale fest?
I want DATA Lewk. Illegals are doing harm (and since you're a dishonest dick, I mean harm beyond what any human group of a certain size does.). That's your assertion, prove it.
AH! Not speaking English harms society? Warrants hate or distrust?
Has nothing to do with speaking Spanish or skin color. It has everything to do with NOT speaking English.
BS. "Not speaking English" is code for bigotry. It's astonishing how often history repeats with you. Everything you say about Latino immigrants was repeated about Irish, Poles, Italians, Germans, etc in earlier waves. Every biblical rationalization you cite against gays was cited previously against blacks in the 50s and 60s (and I mean 1850s and 60s as well as 1950s and 60s). Every biblical passage you cite against gay marriage was cited in support of anti-miscegenation laws.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. You're a bigot.
Top what? Not working hours and hours of menial work? Next thing you'll be telling us about how great farmers are because they get up at the crack of dawn. As the pointy haired boss would say.... "Work smarter not harder." A strong work ethic is great, we need more of that in this country. Manual labor will almost always be a dead end career path, unless there is risk of injury doing it.[/QUOTE]
But Tear, we both know that illegal immigration grew steadily this past decade when the economy was growing. I don't see why you want me to go digging for what [I think] you and I both know is true. I mean, do you really think there is much to be desired with our southern border? Yeah, immigration as a whole is good for our society and I'm not trying to demonize immigrants. But an insecure border really is never good in the scheme of things, and there's a reason it's a hot topic in these states.
Sure! It increased when the housing boom was, uh, booming, and it decreased with the recession.
So? Not evidence that the state of the border altered at all, nor does it say jack shit about drugs and violence. You're the master of conflation! Come on man. That's not honest.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38290873/ns/us_news-life/PHOENIX — Minutemen groups, a surge in Border Patrol agents and a tough new immigration law aren't enough for a reputed neo-Nazi who's now leading a militia in the Arizona desert.
Jason "J.T." Ready is taking matters into his own hands, declaring war on "narco-terrorists" and keeping an eye out for illegal immigrants. So far, he says his patrols have only found a few border crossers who were given water and handed over to the Border Patrol. Once, they also found a decaying body in a wash, and alerted authorities.
But local law enforcement are nervous given that Ready's group is heavily armed and identifies with the National Socialist Movement, an organization that believes only non-Jewish, white heterosexuals should be American citizens and that everyone who isn't white should leave the country "peacefully or by force."
"We're not going to sit around and wait for the government anymore," Ready said. "This is what our founding fathers did."
An escalation of civilian border watches have taken root in Arizona in recent years, including the Minutemen movement. Various groups patrol the desert on foot, horseback and in airplanes and report suspicious activity to the Border Patrol, and generally, they have not caused problems for law enforcement.
But Ready, a 37-year-old ex-Marine, is different. He and his friends are outfitted with military fatigues, body armor and gas masks, and carry assault rifles. Ready takes offense at the term "neo-Nazi," but admits he identifies with the National Socialist Movement.
"These are explicit Nazis," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project. "These are people who wear swastikas on their sleeves."
I like those guys already!
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Er. Out of curiosity, what are your laws re. militias in these kinds of situations?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Freedom of Assembly. As long as they don't commit a crime as individuals or in some group capacity, or interfere with anyone else's rights, they can pretty much do as they wish. It's possible they could narrowly cross the line into kidnapping, in handing crossers over to the Border Patrol, but that may be hard to successfully prosecute.Er. Out of curiosity, what are your laws re. militias in these kinds of situations?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
How about stopping them and restrict movement untill the border patrol comes?
Congratulations America
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