Immigration cauldron boils over in Arizona

[GGT]

Under Arizona's new law, to take effect in 90 days, it will be a state crime to be in the country illegally, and legal immigrants will be required to carry paperwork proving their status. Arizona police will generally be required to question anyone they "reasonably suspect" of being undocumented -- a provision that critics argue will lead to widespread racial profiling, but that supporters insist will give authorities the flexibility to enforce existing immigration laws.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...rc=nl_headline

Required to carry paperwork proving their status

"Papers, please"?

[Nessus]

If they have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear.

[GGT]

If they have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself? No, this is more complicated than that. The US doesn't have a comprehensive immigration policy, so the states are ginning up the stakes.

A bunch of young adults hanging out in front of a club, maybe that's "illegal loitering" and a cop can ask them for ID. Everyone pulls out a student ID or driver's license, but that doesn't "proove" legal status. Can/should the cop use racial profiling to go the next step, "suspecting" they're illegals from....Mexico....?

Maybe they're part of a....Canadian....drug-dealing mob, but if they're white and speak English they get a pass?

[Lewkowski]

So how do you make sure illegals aren't in the state of Arizona? The voters are pretty clear they don't want illegal immigrants in their state.

[GGT]

So how do you make sure illegals aren't in the state of Arizona? The voters are pretty clear they don't want illegal immigrants in their state.

How would YOU? The purpose of this thread is to let people express their opinions, put forth suggestions, try to find solutions.

[Unheard Of]

So how do you make sure illegals aren't in the state of Arizona? The voters are pretty clear they don't want illegal immigrants in their state.

You could make it a really shitty place to live.

[GGT]

You could make it a really shitty place to live.

How many ways can you define shitty place to live? 102 degrees in the shade (but it's a "dry heat") or massive amounts of old geezers driving around on their way to golf courses (yes, it's an "industry") or transplants from the midwest who want green grass lawns (and private swimming pools, because it's so fucking (oops hit wrong key) SO FUCKING HOT that everyone wants central A/C and/or a pool, in a FUCKING DESERT?

[CitizenCain]

Maybe they're part of a....Canadian....drug-dealing mob, but if they're white and speak English they get a pass?

Sounds good to me.

So how do you make sure illegals aren't in the state of Arizona? The voters are pretty clear they don't want illegal immigrants in their state.

And what happens when/if the voters decide that they don't want black people in their state? Or "legal" Latinos? Or, even worse, what happens when the voters decide that they want to force everyone to buy health insurance?

[GGT]

Don't confuse Lewk too much, Cain. Texas is closer to Arizona than Massah-chewz-its. His head might explode if he has to think about ballot initiatives with health insurance (his employer), border interlopers (state's rights), and taxes (or federal immigration rules).

Hell, my head might explode just typing that.

[Dreadnaught]

I'm getting really irritated with the folks who say that this is a law to "intimidate brown people". That's bullshit —*a majority of the "brown people" in Arizona are citizens and they will rightfully sue if they are being asked for papers multiple times.

What concerns me more about this is the "papers, please" civil society that this encourages. It would be unnecessary if we could just control our freaking border. Laws like this are passing because our southern border is utterly out of control.

[']['ear]

There is nothing to fear but fear itself? ?

Fear is the mother of violence.

Gah, a "papers please" society? I'm guessing no aryans will be asked for their papers.

[GGT]

Ary-zone-ah?

[GGT]

I'm getting really irritated with the folks who say that this is a law to "intimidate brown people". That's bullshit —*a majority of the "brown people" in Arizona are citizens and they will rightfully sue if they are being asked for papers multiple times.

What concerns me more about this is the "papers, please" civil society that this encourages. It would be unnecessary if we could just control our freaking border. Laws like this are passing because our southern border is utterly out of control.

Begs the question---why is Regulation such a dirty word in America? Litigation is the better way, after the fact?

[CitizenCain]

Laws like this are passing because our southern border is utterly out of control.

No, laws like this are passing because Americans are fucking morons who buy into the "immigrants are stealing our jobs" bullshit that every politicians tries to sell his constituents in hard times.

And because, frankly, Americans have a huge demand for cheap labor, and border-hopping Mexicans are the only people desperate enough to spend 12 hours building a deck for some racist piece of shit for $50.

Begs the question---why is Regulation such a dirty word in America?

200+ years of history proving that government regulation is only good for making a bad situation worse, would be my guess.

[GGT]

No, laws like this are passing because Americans are fucking morons who buy into the "immigrants are stealing our jobs" bullshit that every politicians tries to sell his constituents in hard times.

And because, frankly, Americans have a huge demand for cheap labor, and border-hopping Mexicans are the only people desperate enough to spend 12 hours building a deck for some racist piece of shit for $50.

200+ years of history proving that government regulation is only good for making a bad situation worse, would be my guess.

That is speaking from both sides of your mouth/brain. Americans will pay for quality work to be done, not just cheap labor. Desperation isn't only in border hoppers and Government regulation is not the root of all evil, though I'm sure it helps you sleep at night to think that.

[CitizenCain]

Sheesh. Here's a thought - if you don't want to hear the answer, stop asking the question.

[GGT]

Sheesh. Here's a thought - if you don't like conversation, stop going to internet forums.

[CitizenCain]

Sorry, Geegee... but the shadow game isn't even cute when 4 year olds do it.

[GGT]

Then don't do the "yes I am but what are you" 8 year old game. OK? okay.

[CitizenCain]

Look, there's nothing wrong with posting nonsensical, drunken gibberish (per se), but you have to be a lot funnier about it.

[GGT]

Look, there's nothing wrong with posting nonsensical, drunken gibberish (per se), but you have to be a lot funnier about it.

Sorry, I can get a good joke and laugh like a hyena, I just suck at telling any.

[Nessus]

No, laws like this are passing because Americans are fucking morons who buy into the "immigrants are stealing our jobs" bullshit that every politicians tries to sell his constituents in hard times.

And because, frankly, Americans have a huge demand for cheap labor, and border-hopping Mexicans are the only people desperate enough to spend 12 hours building a deck for some racist piece of shit for $50.

Out of this post, how much is genuine sympathy for the plight of the border-hopping poor brown immigrants, and how much is your own pent-up frustration with US immigration gobbledygook?

[CitizenCain]

Honestly, I think it's my hatred of hypocrisy more than anything else. Seriously, as a white guy who speaks English goodly, I could get convicted of serial kiddy rape and I'd still be in line behind about 400,000 brown people for deportation... so it doesn't affect me a whole lot personally.

But I just really despise this American attitude of "woohoo, cheap labor to help me put up a deck/clean the office toilets/strangle me in the shower while I pleasure myself," "land of the free," "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." but brown people are stealing all our jobs (which we wouldn't do anyway), so we need to deport them ASAP! One or the other, you stupid fucking cunts - you don't get to have it both ways.

Honestly, every time I hear some white asshole whining about illegal immigration I want to force him to clean the office toilets for $3 an hour and then tattoo the below cartoon on the inside of his fucking eyelids.

[Dreadnaught]

Begs the question---why is Regulation such a dirty word in America? Litigation is the better way, after the fact?

I don't follow the connection.

No, laws like this are passing because Americans are fucking morons who buy into the "immigrants are stealing our jobs" bullshit that every politicians tries to sell his constituents in hard times.

And because, frankly, Americans have a huge demand for cheap labor, and border-hopping Mexicans are the only people desperate enough to spend 12 hours building a deck for some racist piece of shit for $50.

Eh? I think you're way off the ball on this. The Arizona border has become immensely insecure and the drug violence from Mexico is spilling north. Just a few weeks ago a prominent local rancher on the border was killed, which helped pass this bill.

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...ncher-murdered

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/us/05arizona.html

Obviously Americans love the benefits of immigration (and drugs) but can't get our laws to make sense of things. Which is the reason behind your personal hell.

[Illusions]

That doesn't mean that the solution they came up with is the best way, or even a good way to handle this problem. In fact this is pretty much the worse way to go about it, and its already seeing abuse. That and suing the state doesn't punish the entity that perpetrates this abuse, but the taxpayers of that state.

[Dreadnaught]

I didn't say it was the solution. But what abuse is already happening that are you talking about?

[CitizenCain]

I don't follow the connection.

Eh? I think you're way off the ball on this. The Arizona border has become immensely insecure and the drug violence from Mexico is spilling north. Just a few weeks ago a prominent local rancher on the border was killed, which helped pass this bill.

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...ncher-murdered

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/us/05arizona.html

Well sure, but that's a separate issue to the one in this thread. Not entirely unrelated, but that's about our society not being able to learn from our first experiment with prohibition. Requiring legal immigrants to carry papers isn't going to do a damned thing about the insecure border or all the drug violence spilling over. If the bad guys are willing to shoot at Border Patrol agents and gun it out with Drug Enforcement cops on both sides of the border, requiring immigrants to carry papers isn't gonna do shit. They'll just get fakes, or more likely, shoot anyone who asks them for documents.

I have no doubt that the drug violence along the border helped to get this bill passed, but that's just political posturing, and a flimsy pretense for deporting brown people.

Obviously Americans love the benefits of immigration (and drugs) but can't get our laws to make sense of things. Which is the reason behind your personal hell.

Thus is the nature of laws, particularly in a society which has more laws than any one person could read in a lifetime. The bigger problem is that immigrants can't vote, and thus have no political power, and therefore there's a 10+ year immigration backlog now - no funding or political will to fix it, because, again, immigrants can't vote. And I'm sure that the mess we've made of our court system hasn't helped any, but that's a whole different rant for a whole different time.

I really don't see how you're not connecting the "require immigrant to carry papers" thing with "round up all the border hoppers," and are instead connecting it with drug violence (I think). It's not like a piece of paper (or the lack of one, more accurately) is gonna stop a drug runner with an AK-47 and 3 million dollars worth of blow to protect, and everyone knows it.

[Dreadnaught]

I'm saying that this is a flimsy substitute (and a result of) our inability to secure our southern border. And indicative of the fact that we couldn't "round up all the border hoppers" if we wanted too, because most would be good citizens and are already integrated into our society [almost] like we've integrated past generations of immigrants.

[Dreadnaught]

Already starting...

http://www.azfamily.com/video/featur...-91769419.html

Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling

by Alicia E. Barrón
azfamily.com
Posted on April 21, 2010 at 5:04 PM
Updated Thursday, Apr 22 at 3:21 PM
PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”

3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.

Jackie tells 3TV, “It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal.”

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He's legit. It's the first time it's ever happened.”

Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.

Jackie says, “It doesn't feel like it's a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”

A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.

The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling.

[agamemnus]

Fear is the mother of violence.

Gah, a "papers please" society? I'm guessing no aryans will be asked for their papers.

In Russia, police have the right to stop you and ask for your passport. Isn't it a democratic country?