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Thread: Bitcoin: The Future or Ponzi Scheme?

  1. #31
    we aren't there yet, but blockchains could replace notary services. Considering the public side of my work, I really really really really like that idea.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    A lot of altcoins have absolutely no reason to have value, and are where they are on pure speculation.
    People are more loudly saying that about Bitcoin now to. Its fees are to high and its way to slow. A bitcoin conference had to stop accepting bitcoin for ticket sales because of its shortcomings. Everything seems to be about Bitcoin Cash now, and its going to be devastating to a lot of people if Bitcoin Cash overtakes Bitcoin (i think its called bitcoin classic now?).

    and I think thats why a lot of altcoins are popping up. Hopping to profit off of bitcoin forking itself to death before a better cryptocurrency comes takes over.

    (or I seriously screwed up trying to figure all these out)
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  3. #33
    The problem is that as secure as the technology may be (and let's not overegg how secure it truly is) there's nothing inherently valuable about any of these 'currencies' in themselves. People can easily switch to another one and that could leave any old ones utterly worthless. It's not like there's a business that has a patent over blockchain technology and only it can exercise that technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #34
    I also fail to see how marginal improvements in a company's product justifies a 100% increase in stock prices.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Such as?

    Specifically for those companies/"coins" that have shot up in value, not just theoretically?
    The best and most well-known example is Ethereum, which has enabled many others to set up blockchain-based products eg. implementing smart contracts on its own blockchain that cut out middlemen and reduce administrative overhead & delays. The kodak idea isn't new--using blockchains for digital media assets was an early proposal for the technology. Another commonly cited example of a blockchain application is a system that uses smart contracts for a flexible decentralized data storage platform. Many banks are developing blockchain-based platforms for making transactions and international settlements cheaper and a lot faster. In some developing countries, blockchain technology is being developed to enable reliable and secure payments between individuals and businesses, with built-in systems for handling exchange rates etc. One of my favorite ideas is a company that uses blockchain to manage a fraud-proof ticket system for events.

    It's true, many altcoins with their heavily publicized ICOs are mostly capitalizing on hype without having a high likelihood of delivering a useful product, but there's a large number of concrete, useful real-world applications for blockchains that either improve existing businesses or enable entirely new types.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  6. #36
    Yes I get the theoretical practical uses for the technology but I'm not seeing how those uses are or can be patented by the companies and currencies that are leaping up in value. And without that I don't see why they specifically, rather than the technology in the abstract, should be skyrocketing.

    Lets say this technology is one day adopted by the banking sector as a form of clearing transactions. How does that make Long Blockchain Iced Tea or whatever its called today justify its value?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #37
    Ultimately it'll be the specific applications that create real value but we are currently not good at determining which ones will succeed and which will fail, nor do we have the slightest idea how to calculate the value of any given implementation. ICOs are one way for companies using blockchains to raise a lot of cash quickly (enabled by ethereum most of the time) but not all companies go down that route.

    Your question doesn't really make sense though. No-one here has indicated that they believe in blockchain iced tea or that the value of iced tea coins have anything to do with the value of blockchains in the baking sector.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #38
    I'm not seeing the connection between the cost saving of blockchain having anything to do with patents either
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    I'm not seeing the connection between the cost saving of blockchain having anything to do with patents either
    The idea is that anyone can in theory develop a blockchain application or system so no one single company has a significant and sustained competitive advantage. Of course, this is like saying that smartphones, software, credit card companies and a billion other products have no competitive advantages even though many plainly do.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    People are more loudly saying that about Bitcoin now to. Its fees are to high and its way to slow. A bitcoin conference had to stop accepting bitcoin for ticket sales because of its shortcomings. Everything seems to be about Bitcoin Cash now, and its going to be devastating to a lot of people if Bitcoin Cash overtakes Bitcoin (i think its called bitcoin classic now?).

    and I think thats why a lot of altcoins are popping up. Hopping to profit off of bitcoin forking itself to death before a better cryptocurrency comes takes over.

    (or I seriously screwed up trying to figure all these out)
    I have virtually no faith in Bitcoin remaining. They've fucked up their scaling story too badly, and the censorship and infighting in the bitcoin community doesn't make for a good environment for continued improvements. Right now, Bitcoin is coasting mostly on name recognition and first mover advantage, but I fully expect it to be dethroned in the near future. BCH is in a better position, but it also doesn't have a lot to recommend it over Ethereum.

    "Bitcoin Legacy" is the more popular renaming of BTC, I think.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Ultimately it'll be the specific applications that create real value but we are currently not good at determining which ones will succeed and which will fail, nor do we have the slightest idea how to calculate the value of any given implementation. ICOs are one way for companies using blockchains to raise a lot of cash quickly (enabled by ethereum most of the time) but not all companies go down that route.

    Your question doesn't really make sense though. No-one here has indicated that they believe in blockchain iced tea or that the value of iced tea coins have anything to do with the value of blockchains in the baking sector.
    No-one here has indicated they believe in Blockchain Iced Tea but the fools easily parted with their money in the stock market have. That's the whole point of discussing and calling out this bubble. That business tripled its stock price by that stupid rename, they're already down to "just" doubled, no doubt reality will see them grounded ultimately too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    I'm not seeing the connection between the cost saving of blockchain having anything to do with patents either
    The issue is what justifies the specific increases in value for these companies/currencies. Is it a bubble or not? If a company/currency has developed patents that restrict their innovations to themselves that could justify their valuation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The idea is that anyone can in theory develop a blockchain application or system so no one single company has a significant and sustained competitive advantage. Of course, this is like saying that smartphones, software, credit card companies and a billion other products have no competitive advantages even though many plainly do.
    Bizarre analogy. Software companies and smartphone companies especially can be incredibly protective and litigious over their patents. Many tech companies have been bought specifically for their patents, while lawsuits between smartphone companies over patents have been major news discussed here previously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #42
    A lot of the value is derived from the network and ecosystem. Those can't be copied.

  13. #43
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The best and most well-known example is Ethereum, which has enabled many others to set up blockchain-based products eg. implementing smart contracts on its own blockchain that cut out middlemen and reduce administrative overhead & delays. The kodak idea isn't new--using blockchains for digital media assets was an early proposal for the technology. Another commonly cited example of a blockchain application is a system that uses smart contracts for a flexible decentralized data storage platform. Many banks are developing blockchain-based platforms for making transactions and international settlements cheaper and a lot faster. In some developing countries, blockchain technology is being developed to enable reliable and secure payments between individuals and businesses, with built-in systems for handling exchange rates etc. One of my favorite ideas is a company that uses blockchain to manage a fraud-proof ticket system for events.

    It's true, many altcoins with their heavily publicized ICOs are mostly capitalizing on hype without having a high likelihood of delivering a useful product, but there's a large number of concrete, useful real-world applications for blockchains that either improve existing businesses or enable entirely new types.
    Here's the problem with Ethereum, though: It is not foolproof, it is remotely accessible and there's no human oversight over how the contracts act out when they do.

    Just think of the potential for problems if this thing takes off and then, sometime down the stream, we get a Spectre-type vulnerability.

    While I recognize the potential, I'm also deeply wary of the problems that will occur. We already have plenty of examples of problems with this technology.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  14. #44
    100% Agreed Khen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #45
    Also just heard of a blockchain travel reservation company. Instead of working through a commission-generating online travel agency, your reservations are managed via a blockchain network.

    Seems like a neat idea, though wondering how this magically ends the role that online travel agencies play in bulk marketing. It's not like those economics vanish, though people are saying that is the implication of all this.

  16. #46
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Here's the problem with Ethereum, though: It is not foolproof, it is remotely accessible and there's no human oversight over how the contracts act out when they do.

    Just think of the potential for problems if this thing takes off and then, sometime down the stream, we get a Spectre-type vulnerability.

    While I recognize the potential, I'm also deeply wary of the problems that will occur. We already have plenty of examples of problems with this technology.
    This goes without saying. See the DAO hack for example. All current technology comes with this risk. Possible that a large blockchain may be more resilient.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #48
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    See this? This is my surprise face.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    See this? This is my surprise face.
    LOL. This is mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #51
    I might make my own wager now. The RGB 1080 I picked up in May for $460 is now worth north of $700 used. I think I'm going to sell it and focus on catching up on my console games until this crypto thing crashes or the next wave of cards releases.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  22. #52
    Pump and dump is going through the smaller currencies like wildfire. A lot of it also includes a social media elements which is annoying as all hell. I know people who really don't have money to be gambling that are 'investing' in them.

  23. #53
    I heard a blurb on NPR that the IRS is tamping down on crypto currencies....and taxing every transaction (literally by the millions) like any other property exchange.

    Sounds like a round-about way to "regulate" an unregulated, shadow banking industry. Wonder how that would hold up in court, if anyone actually challenged it?

  24. #54
    Where did you hear that?

    Bitcoin is unregulated and anonymous which is why it's used by criminals. So I don't see how they're "taxing every transaction".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #55
    You can call it unregulated, but it's certainly taxed. Cash transactions are anonymous too, but I assume you don't think your physical take at the till in your pub is untaxed.

    https://www.investopedia.com/article...s-bitcoins.asp
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  26. #56
    Sorry I should have phrased it better but yes legally-behaving Americans are supposed to report bitcoin transactions just as legally-behaving people are supposed to report cash takings.

    However I specifically mentioned criminals. Cash is a good example, it is used very frequently in black market transactions that go untaxed. Not every cash transaction is taxed as not every tax transaction is reported. A lot of people working "cash in hand" don't report their cash takings. Bitcoin is the same. As opposed to other electronic transactions that normally can't evade taxes as they're traceable.

    A drug dealer selling drugs and getting paid in bitcoin is likely not reporting their bitcoin takings to the IRS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Bitcoin is unregulated and anonymous
    sooner or later a vast majority of people have to use a service to change a digital currency into actual cash. That leaves a trail. The IRS has deals with companies to track transactions and has won court cases to force exchanges to turn over info on thousands of accounts.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  28. #58
    What OG said. Bitcoin is only anonymous as long as you never convert to or from fiat. The moment you do, it becomes traceable. The Bitcoin ledger is public.

    What GGT is probably referring to with "taxing every transaction" is that they're also taxing transactions that don't involve fiat. If you traded some BTC for Litecoin, you have to pay tax on that, even though no USD was involved.

  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Sorry I should have phrased it better but yes legally-behaving Americans are supposed to report bitcoin transactions just as legally-behaving people are supposed to report cash takings.

    However I specifically mentioned criminals. Cash is a good example, it is used very frequently in black market transactions that go untaxed. Not every cash transaction is taxed as not every tax transaction is reported. A lot of people working "cash in hand" don't report their cash takings. Bitcoin is the same. As opposed to other electronic transactions that normally can't evade taxes as they're traceable.

    A drug dealer selling drugs and getting paid in bitcoin is likely not reporting their bitcoin takings to the IRS.
    I don't know why I'm even trying to translate GGT's classic poor communication but I believe that should be interpreted as demanding or insisting on taxing every transaction (it remains an odd assertion because of course governments always try and do that, but we are talking about GGT here). And bitcoin is actually a lot more tracable than cash. The blockchain guarantees that, every transaction gets recorded automatically. It's not really anonymous. I think the phrase I heard used once is that it's "pseudonymous, not anonymous." Much like the tags used on here. You have to do a lot of work to maintain the identity protection against scrutiny and criminals aren't any better at that than the rest of us.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  30. #60
    The recent tax bill appears to have ensured that crypto-only transactions (eg. exchanging bitcoin for ethereum) are no longer covered by the "like kind exchange" exemption. It's clearly a recent change. I think some exchanges have been required to identify a large number of accounts that have incurred tax liabilities as a result of this change.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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