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Thread: Can American conservatism survive intact & unadulterated?

  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Think he asked that about WWI
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Is that like using Socialism to save Capitalism? Sorry, but American conservatism lost its way decades ago, and won't find its way back just by voting for Democrats. Republicans gave up on 'principles' and ruined their own party when they nominated Trump in 2016.

    edit: even earlier, when Palin was the (R) VP candidate, and before that with Bush or Cheney.

    They (Republicans) can't continue to support the Trump agenda in public, but secretly vote for Biden....as a way to save "conservatism".
    Did you read the article? Or even the Tweet?

    How are Republicans who are saying that Trump is unacceptable so vote Biden "supporting the Trump agenda"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #483
    I'm saying that it's too late for Republicans to save their "conservative" principles, or their party, at this late date. They should have done that years ago. They should have at least refused to support Trump as their nominee, and collectively rebuked him (like Republicans did with the Birch Society during the Goldwater era).

    I'm saying that if the GOP *really* wanted to reclaim their credibility, all the so-called Republicans working in the Trump administration should resign. Including his entire cabinet, from Barr to Pompeo. It's not enough that "acting" secretaries quit or get fired, just to be replaced by new Trumpistas. And all the previous actors (like Mattis and Kelly) need to make their complaints public. Not just wait for their book to come out, like Bolton did.

    Unless and until the entire RNC divorces itself from Trump, it continues to be the Party of Trump.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Did you read the article? Or even the Tweet?

    How are Republicans who are saying that Trump is unacceptable so vote Biden "supporting the Trump agenda"?
    Never Trump But Everything That Gave Us Trumpism
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The answer to this thread's question is yes. Yes, American conservativism can survive and it can do so by voting Democrat. Increasing number of Republicans saying this now.

    This paints a picture of a fringe with no political clout or electoral viability. Nor does it seem to have any cultural power.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  6. #486
    A fringe that should be encouraged and applauded for doing the right thing. A fringe that will hopefully take back over if Trump is humiliated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    A fringe that should be encouraged and applauded for doing the right thing. A fringe that will hopefully take back over if Trump is humiliated.
    You say they'll "take back over" as if principled conservatism was usurped with Trump, when it's been in the back seat for the better part of two decades.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #488
    The last two GOP Presidential nominees, McCain and Romney, were both principled conservative who have in a principled manner both stood up to Trump.

    It is a shame those two were chosen to run against Obama while Trump was chosen to run again Hillary Clinton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The last two GOP Presidential nominees, McCain and Romney, were both principled conservative who have in a principled manner both stood up to Trump.
    They had to contend with a large number of even greater fuckwits, because the base thought they were too decent and moderate—but couldn't decide on another candidate to unite behind. More importantly, the party's choice of presidential candidate is just one aspect of its politics. Republican politicians, pundits and thought-leaders have been unprincipled much longer than Trump has been the party's leader.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #490
    Absolutely the GOP has a large number of extremist nutjobs in it. It also has some good people.
    The Democrats also have a large number of extremists nutjobs in it. It also has some good people.

    Biden is a terrible candidate, he's dithering and old. But he's fundamentally a decent has-been. In normal circumstances he'd just be "meh". He's positively great against whom he is against. If it was Romney vs Sanders or AOC then it'd be a different story though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Absolutely the GOP has a large number of extremist nutjobs in it. It also has some good people.
    The Democrats also have a large number of extremists nutjobs in it. It also has some good people.
    In light of what we know about the last couple of decades of conservative American media and political discourse—eg. on Fox, Sinclair, Federalist, NR, and ofc. legislatures—I'm gonna call this an example of false equivalency.

    Biden is a terrible candidate, he's dithering and old. But he's fundamentally a decent has-been. In normal circumstances he'd just be "meh". He's positively great against whom he is against. If it was Romney vs Sanders or AOC then it'd be a different story though.
    Biden is an excellent coalition-builder backed by reasonably competent people. Sanders isn't really a coalition-builder or networker. AOC is just starting out; she's an effective legislator with a talent for politics, but we can't really say anything meaningful about her as a presidential candidate at this stage. Romney would have to deal with a crazy-ass voter-base—in which the extremist nutjobs form the core rather than the fringe—and a party that is informed by hatred and kookery.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #492
    Basically, they're a bunch of useless shitheads:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #493
    "Conservatives for Labor"

    ...As conservative policy experts have begun imagining a post-Trump Republican Party, some are arguing that it should drop its longtime antipathy to unions.

    Republicans now rely on working-class votes, these experts point out, and unions have a long record of lifting workers’ living standards. The decline of unions, on the other hand, has contributed to slow-growing living standards for most Americans. A stronger labor movement, according to this view, would be better than high taxes and big anti-poverty programs.

    This past weekend — Labor Day weekend — a group of conservatives released a *joint statement* on the importance of unions. The group included Senator Marco Rubio and Jeff Sessions, the former attorney general.

    “There are a lot of things we like about free markets,” Oren Cass, the executive director of American Compass, the think tank that organized the letter, told me. “But at the end of the day, those markets are a means to an actual substantive end — a flourishing society and healthy communities and families and a strong nation. And if markets aren’t doing that, then we have a problem.”

    Cass emphasized that there was a lot he didn’t like about today’s unions. He is instead intrigued by industrywide unions, which negotiate pay for workers across multiple companies and are common in Europe. They can be more efficient than repeated union sign-up drives and contract negotiations at individual companies.

    (Many progressives, including Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, also favor versions of the idea, known as sectoral bargaining. Some pro-business groups counter that it would stifle competition.)

    Whatever the specific approach, Cass said that the key was reducing the power imbalance that exists today between management and workers.

    For now, pro-union conservatives make up a tiny minority of the party’s office holders. The Trump administration has repeatedly tried to weaken worker bargaining power, often with support from congressional Republicans. So it is entirely possible that the party will remain opposed to unions for years to come.

    But that’s not the only possible outcome.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/08/b...-briefing.html


    Here's their *joint statement*:

    "Conservatives Should Ensure Workers a Seat at the Table"

    Statement on a conservative future for the American labor movement.

    American Compass | Sep 06, 2020

    American conservatives rightly place economic freedom and limited government among our dearest values. The defense of markets, though, has at times made us overly solicitous of businesses. As we advocate for owners and managers in their pursuit of profit, and celebrate the enormous benefits their efforts can generate for us all, we must accord the same respect to the concerns of workers and ensure that they too have a seat at the table. In a well-functioning and competitive market, participants meet as equals able to advance their interests through mutually beneficial relationships.

    Institutions of organized labor have traditionally been the mechanism by which workers take collective action and gain representation and bargaining power in the private sector. Strong worker representation can make America stronger. Unfortunately, our nation’s Great Depression–era labor laws no longer provide an effective framework, many unions have become unresponsive to workers’ needs and some outright corrupt, and membership has fallen to just 6 percent of the private-sector workforce. Rather than cheer the demise of a once-valuable institution, conservatives should seek reform and reinvigoration of the laws that govern organizing and collective bargaining for three reasons:

    Economic Prosperity. We believe that workers share more fully in our nation’s prosperity when they have a seat at the table. Free markets have proved their unmatched capacity to generate growth, wealth, and innovation, but they offer no guarantee that the gains will reach all participants. We pursue and celebrate tight labor markets because we know that the result is beneficial to workers and their families and communities; likewise, we should support institutions that reinforce those effects through economic agency and self-reliance, rather than retreat to dependence on redistribution.

    Limited Government. We prefer the private ordering of bargains between workers and management to overbearing dictates from Washington. Policymakers have stepped into the void left by workers’ loss of collective representation with a vast and unwieldy edifice of employment regulation. By contrast, when workers have a seat at the table, discussions occur on a level playing field and the parties can make tradeoffs tailored to their circumstances and preferences, rendering much bureaucratic oversight superfluous. Layered atop extensive regulation, the process works poorly; as a substitute, it can yield fairer outcomes that better meet people’s needs.

    Strong Communities. We consider solidarity indispensable to the health of our communities and the nation. Well-functioning private-sector worker organizations are vital mediating institutions for establishing stronger bonds among workers, facilitating mutual aid, and affording meaningful participation in the public square. Giving workers a seat at the table also fosters shared understanding and mutual respect between workers and the managers, owners, and political leaders who have become socially and economically isolated from the American mainstream.

    The standard partisan arguments over labor have tended to accept our nation’s current legal framework as the only one, and thus to present its expansion or contraction as the only options. Entirely different arrangements deserve consideration. In parts of Europe, for instance, “right-to-work” is the norm, but so is sectoral bargaining. On one hand, labor and management in Germany often partner on “works councils,” which are illegal in the United States and opposed by American labor unions. On the other hand, such “co-determination” can also extend to labor holding seats on corporate boards, which American unions support but shareholders resist. In some places, unions manage functions like unemployment insurance and job training that we take for granted as government responsibilities. In Canada, collective bargaining offers the parties autonomy to depart from government mandates in regulating their own workplaces.

    Conservatives should be willing to consider all these approaches, and others besides. We endorse no specific proposal, but believe that various combinations hold the potential for substantive reform that would advance our priorities of improving the lives of workers and their families, deepening our communities, and strengthening the nation. We are eager to pursue discussions with policymakers from across the political spectrum and representatives from all facets of the economy. Here, too, workers must have a seat at the table.
    https://americancompass.org/essays/c...-at-the-table/

  14. #494
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #495
    Patriotic Lesson #1 - Davis and the Confederacy were the good guys. It was all about states rights there were no other issues at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #496
    The entire conference is suffused with intense loser-energy these people are honest-to-god caricatures, and they clearly know it.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #497
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #498
    If Trump is re-elected, belief in QAnon will provide most of the cover needed to declare the Democratic Party illegal, put its leaders in jail, a swathe of its prominent members into camps, or murder them. I see no reason to believe the slope we are slipping down right this moment won't steepen, beyond turning back, with a second term. And don't fuckin' tell me it can't happen.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  19. #499
    Last edited by Aimless; 09-20-2020 at 10:09 PM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    If Trump is re-elected, belief in QAnon will provide most of the cover needed to declare the Democratic Party illegal, put its leaders in jail, a swathe of its prominent members into camps, or murder them. I see no reason to believe the slope we are slipping down right this moment won't steepen, beyond turning back, with a second term. And don't fuckin' tell me it can't happen.
    Another victim of TDS

  21. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Another victim of TDS
    I feel like you don't have any credibility on the subject, because your tiny head is stuck so far up Trump's—and, of course, your own—ass. You have to have more credibility if you want to say things like that and be taken seriously.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  22. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    That's the wrong emoticon for what's happening. Patriotic Education and Good Genes....just more code words for racist policies, like "good people on both sides" during neo-Nazi marches. And threatening to prosecute peaceful protesters with sedition is an extension of "Lock her up" chants from fascists who want to throw political rivals in jail.

    It's embarrassing, frightening, shocking, depressing. Is there an emoji for all that?

  23. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Stay away from Mensch. She's a combination of grifter and nutjob.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #504
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post

    ...

    I mean ye gods how dumb these people are.
    It doesn't matter how dumb they are. It's their numbers that is an issue.
    .

  26. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post

    Beginning to think American Conservatives might have difficulties sustaining this level of stupidity for much longer

    I mean ye gods how dumb these people are.
    Minx, you should probably stop thinking of conservatives as a stupid monolithic group -- and realize how "smart" Republicans have been by embracing White Evangelicals, manipulating political messaging, turning legislative debates into cultural wars, and using Fox News and social media to their advantage. They're not stupid, but very savvy in being hypocritical and unprincipled....by convincing gullible people of just the opposite. It's like a Masters Course in exploiting Cognitive Dissonance, exploiting fears of change and progress, and using Facebook groups and Trump TV news bubbles that turn everything upside down and inside out.

    There's a reason Trump said he loves the uneducated -- and why the (R) party made him their party leader, even tho he was an empty shell devoid of principles, a pathological liar and con-artist. They saw the opportunity to retain power by LYING *and it worked*!

    Many 'conservative' Republicans have joined the never-Trump movement recently, but it's pretty late in the game to make a real difference. They've already convinced millions of people that the news media is the enemy, and anything that's "reported" as anti-Trump is a lie, a hoax, and part of teh lib'rul Deep State conspiracy to turn us into SSSocialists (aka commie pinkos) that will take away their guns.



    yee haw
    Last edited by GGT; 09-21-2020 at 02:54 AM.

  27. #507
    (continued) What I'd like to know is how "conservatives" who focus solely on birth control and abortion, and reshaping the courts on that single issue -- which limits a woman's control over her own body to what the government decides -- can consider themselves small government, individual rights, and separation of church and state advocates?

    Being anti-science is no excuse for interpreting the constitution from the gut. And framing those gut instincts as religious freeeedoms can be quite dangerous.

  28. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Minx, you should probably stop thinking of conservatives as a stupid monolithic group -- and realize how "smart" Republicans have been by embracing White Evangelicals, manipulating political messaging, turning legislative debates into cultural wars, and using Fox News and social media to their advantage. They're not stupid, but very savvy in being hypocritical and unprincipled....by convincing gullible people of just the opposite. It's like a Masters Course in exploiting Cognitive Dissonance, exploiting fears of change and progress, and using Facebook groups and Trump TV news bubbles that turn everything upside down and inside out.

    There's a reason Trump said he loves the uneducated -- and why the (R) party made him their party leader, even tho he was an empty shell devoid of principles, a pathological liar and con-artist. They saw the opportunity to retain power by LYING *and it worked*!

    Many 'conservative' Republicans have joined the never-Trump movement recently, but it's pretty late in the game to make a real difference. They've already convinced millions of people that the news media is the enemy, and anything that's "reported" as anti-Trump is a lie, a hoax, and part of teh lib'rul Deep State conspiracy to turn us into SSSocialists (aka commie pinkos) that will take away their guns.



    yee haw
    Even cunning people can be dumb as shit
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Even cunning people can be dumb as shit
    Agreed. But calling people dumb or stupid is no way to convince them they're wrong, or change their minds.

  30. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Agreed. But calling people dumb or stupid is no way to convince them they're wrong, or change their minds.
    But I have no expectation of changing any conservative minds here.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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