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Thread: Can American conservatism survive intact & unadulterated?

  1. #121
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    "bad-faith Justin Trudeau" ... "dishonest Justin Trudeau" ... I wonder where advisers learnt such diplomatic language from?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #122
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Fascinating to watch the conservative establishment adopt the negative-adjective stuffing political-speech style of ideologically motivated dictators the world over. You know the one, where they can't mention the US or UK without at last three synonyms for "imperialist" in the same sentence.
    It's getting closer now, the fear that we have held off for so long
    It's getting closer now to where we know there can be no return
    It's makes no sense to me, what has been set in motion here today
    It makes no sense anymore, was it too little, too late? Or too much too fast?

  3. #123
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    I just commented about these verbal assaults in the Tariffs thread. This is NOT traditional conservatism. It's more like Trumpism that trickles-down to his toadies and trolls. Trumpistas?

    What I'd like to know is....why the hell are 'conservatives' still so quiet about the damage this president is doing? Can it be true that tax cuts, deregulation, and judicial nominations are all they care about? Really?

  4. #124
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    .... The real debate should be Libertarian vs Authoritarian. Not every issue you will be in favor of more or less government control but in general people should pick what they think is best. Government control over you or not.
    Did Trump win the (R) party nomination because he appealed to Libertarian values? Or was it because a majority of (R) voters actually wanted an Authoritarian who promised to support "conservative values"?

    Not too long ago Trump being the (R) presidential nominee stunned practically everyone, including many Republicans! But they circled the wagons to elect "a" Republican, knowing full-well Trump was a RINO, an Authoritarian, hoping he'd surround himself with experienced staff, cabinet, and diplomats who'd control the Vulgarian's impulsive streak and childish tantrums. Trump would become presidential once he was in the WH, and wouldn't continue to act like a reality TV show host, a bankrupt NY real estate or casino developer, or a grifter. Remember that?

    Well, now that those hopes have been proven wrong, why is there still so much silence from the Republican leadership? What will WAKE them from their collective coma?

  5. #125
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I just commented about these verbal assaults in the Tariffs thread. This is NOT traditional conservatism. It's more like Trumpism that trickles-down to his toadies and trolls. Trumpistas?

    What I'd like to know is....why the hell are 'conservatives' still so quiet about the damage this president is doing? Can it be true that tax cuts, deregulation, and judicial nominations are all they care about? Really?
    I'm not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Did Trump win the (R) party nomination because he appealed to Libertarian values? Or was it because a majority of (R) voters actually wanted an Authoritarian who promised to support "conservative values"?

    Not too long ago Trump being the (R) presidential nominee stunned practically everyone, including many Republicans! But they circled the wagons to elect "a" Republican, knowing full-well Trump was a RINO, an Authoritarian, hoping he'd surround himself with experienced staff, cabinet, and diplomats who'd control the Vulgarian's impulsive streak and childish tantrums. Trump would become presidential once he was in the WH, and wouldn't continue to act like a reality TV show host, a bankrupt NY real estate or casino developer, or a grifter. Remember that?

    Well, now that those hopes have been proven wrong, why is there still so much silence from the Republican leadership? What will WAKE them from their collective coma?
    Trump appealed to a few different groups of people. I'm not blind to the fact that there are plenty of Conservatives who are authoritarian. Our Conservative/Liberal divide is schizo. There are Conservatives who believe in small government and then their are others who think we should create moral laws that people must follow. There are Liberals who believe in personal liberty who think big brother should put taxes on soda and french fries.

    Many people did NOT think he would suddenly become 'presidential' when he got into office.

    As far as silence there have been plenty of people on the Right who have spoken out about Trump. It isn't all or nothing though. One can cheer his judicial appointments while condemning his tariffs. One can celebrate the Republicans tax legislation while being irritated at his stupid tweets.

    Bottom line is if we had Hillary as president we wouldn't be uncovering the corruption of the FBI. If we had Hillary as president we would have a liberal majority on the Supreme Court. If we had Hillary as president we would have higher taxes. So yeah *on the balance* I'd still rather have Trump and all his embarrassing warts than a liberal like Clinton.

  7. #127
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Bottom line is that idiots didn't listen to real lifelong conservative intellectuals and commentators who have clearly articulated many compelling reasons for why a SCOTUS judge and a short-lived tax cut were not worth sacrificing conservative ideals, norms and policies on the altar of MAGAism. Bottom line is, the people falling into line behind Trump don't give a shit about conservatism, except for that version that is about giving themselves special treatment and punishing their enemies. Bottom line is, you and your idiot kin have embraced the dumbest kind of conspiratorial bullshit and an ideology that totally disregards laws, ethics and core norms of good governance based on a desire to satisfy your perverse urges even if it comes at the expense of your nation. It absolutely is all or nothing, and Trump is a wholesale repudiation of American conservatism.

    "The corruption of the FBI". You pathetic little pizzagater.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  8. #128
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    US conservatives are so fixated on this idea of tyranny coming from 'big government' - people who think they know what's best for everyone and want to control them - that they have no idea where most dictatorships, historically and currently, actually come from, which is to say basic criminality and corruption, and they can't see the warning signs.
    It's getting closer now, the fear that we have held off for so long
    It's getting closer now to where we know there can be no return
    It's makes no sense to me, what has been set in motion here today
    It makes no sense anymore, was it too little, too late? Or too much too fast?

  9. #129
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Currently US conservatives are fixated on pizzeria child porn rings, conspiracies about the Deep State and Soros, Mexican gangs, creeping Sharia and the many benefits of abusing children of asylum seekers by tearing them away from their parents. The opposition to a tyrannical big govt is or was one of several components of American conservatism. These days it's increasingly beginning to resemble the version of conservatism described by someone as follows:

    "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition: there must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

    Plus infinite mulligans for scandals, lies, shady business, violation of ethical norms and norms of good governance, and of course crimes.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #130
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    US conservatives are so fixated on this idea of tyranny coming from 'big government' - people who think they know what's best for everyone and want to control them - that they have no idea where most dictatorships, historically and currently, actually come from, which is to say basic criminality and corruption, and they can't see the warning signs.
    It feels funny to quote something from Star Wars but, seriously, it fits very well:

    "So this is how liberty dies ... with thundering applause."
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Bottom line is that idiots didn't listen to real lifelong conservative intellectuals and commentators who have clearly articulated many compelling reasons for why a SCOTUS judge and a short-lived tax cut were not worth sacrificing conservative ideals, norms and policies on the altar of MAGAism. Bottom line is, the people falling into line behind Trump don't give a shit about conservatism, except for that version that is about giving themselves special treatment and punishing their enemies. Bottom line is, you and your idiot kin have embraced the dumbest kind of conspiratorial bullshit and an ideology that totally disregards laws, ethics and core norms of good governance based on a desire to satisfy your perverse urges even if it comes at the expense of your nation. It absolutely is all or nothing, and Trump is a wholesale repudiation of American conservatism.

    "The corruption of the FBI". You pathetic little pizzagater.
    Mcabe and Comey gave directly conflicting testimony. Also it isn't the first time the FBI has done shady shit.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-1...candal/8533382

  12. #132
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Sitting US congressman retweets British Neo-Nazi:

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...mpression=true

    White supremacist hobbyist Corey Stewart wins GOP nomination.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #133
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I've never heard of Mark Collett and I'm British. Of course I'm not a neo-Nazi so I don't travel in their circles but he's not Tommy Robinson.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #134
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    No, Tommy Robinson is for mainstream defenders of free speech.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #135
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Tommy Robinson is a fascist criminal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #136
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Tommy Robinson is a fascist criminal.
    He is currently a very popular defender of free speech that the PC cultural Marxist establishment is trying to silence because he has the courage to speak the truth about Muslims even though it's unpopular.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #137
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Only among fascist ignoramuses. Maybe that's the circle you travel in, once again you do seem to have a Lewk-like hard on for picking odd balls and concentrating on them as if they're representative like he does with fake rape victims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #138
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    No, you are incorrect. Tommy Robinson was once an unknown nazi hobbyist, but lately many others have become enamored with him and especially what they believe he represents, which is the fight against an oppressive PC state eager to surrender traditional Western society to the hordes of invading Muslim economic migrants and silence political dissidents who speak up for traditional values. Nazis wear suits and have gained a veneer of respectability because more and more people have become incapable of recognizing these scum for what they are or have convinced themselves that what they appear to stand for isn't all that bad, that they're being misrepresented by shrill, hysterical Muslim-hugging feminazi cultural Marxist elites. Others have persuaded themselves that people like Robinson represent the lesser evil. Why you find this difficult to believe in a world where people like Farage and Trump dominate the media and enjoy considerable popular support is beyond me, but just because you like to keep your head buried in the sand doesn't mean that support for fascists isn't on the rise in large parts of the western world. What, do you believe there are no ignoramuses in the West? That you are somehow immune to this plague?

    Thousands of people marched on the streets in support of this scumbag, and tens of thousands more have expressed their support on social media. For every vocal supporter, there is likely to be at least one quiet one. The crimes he has committed are easy to ignore or forgive, for these authoritarians, who have found it in them to forgive Trump and eg. the criminals he's pardoned.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #139
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    He's the former Co-Founder, Spokesman and Leader of the English Defence League.

    Calling him "once unknown" is like calling Le Pen "once unknown".

    Farage doesn't dominate the media, he's a soon-to-be-made-unemployed oddball that has failed on 8 occasions to be elected to Westminster. The only reason he got any prominence is because of the EU and its insistence on using the perverted Proportional Representation system to boost the extremists representation. Thankfully we're leaving that disaster and his entire party behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #140
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #141
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    ...As far as silence there have been plenty of people on the Right who have spoken out about Trump. It isn't all or nothing though. One can cheer his judicial appointments while condemning his tariffs. One can celebrate the Republicans tax legislation while being irritated at his stupid tweets.
    Where are these 'plenty of people' in congress? Besides those retiring (not worried about re-election) there's been little or no push-back, not even when criticism is warranted. Aimless said it well enough, though.

    The latest debacle with Trump's "Zero Tolerance" policy on the southern border woke some 'conservatives' from their coma, but the damage already done is massive. Trump doesn't believe in the Rule of Law or due process, let alone civil rights, so it will be up to Republicans -- including conservatives -- to keep his nativist, tribalist, authoritarian nature in check. I'm skeptical about that, since the GOP has become the Party of Trump.

  22. #142
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Seeing clips from the farcical hearing of Wray and Rosenstein, I was struck by two things:

    1. How cartoonishly stupid the Hannity-channeling grandstanding Republicans on the committee are. I mean it's just unbelievable. It's even worse than Jordan's and Gowdy's provocatively slappable faces.

    2. The apparent strength of Wray's and Rosenstein's resolve to see this through no matter what shit gets thrown their way by these fucking circus clowns.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Seeing clips from the farcical hearing of Wray and Rosenstein, I was struck by two things:

    1. How cartoonishly stupid the Hannity-channeling grandstanding Republicans on the committee are. I mean it's just unbelievable. It's even worse than Jordan's and Gowdy's provocatively slappable faces.

    2. The apparent strength of Wray's and Rosenstein's resolve to see this through no matter what shit gets thrown their way by these fucking circus clowns.
    To be honest they are barking up the wrong tree with Rosenstein. Unless he's a complete liar (and I don't think he is) he seems to be doing exactly what he feel is the ethical and appropriate thing to do. I do think the Gowdy wanting a proper end to the investigation is appropriate (justice delayed is justice denied quote was a nice touch). There exists two possible scenarios:

    1. Trump colluded with Russians. This should then lead to articles of Impeachment. Wouldn't you want a President OUT as soon as possible if he did this sort of thing?

    2. Trump didn't collude with the Russians. In this case you would want this waste of tax payers money to be ended as soon as possible.

    In either scenario you want the investigation to be finished rapidly. Only if you think there was no collusion and want to simply damage Trump would you want it to drag its feet.

  24. #144
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Investigations take time. That's not dragging feet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #145
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I do think the Gowdy wanting a proper end to the investigation is appropriate (justice delayed is justice denied quote was a nice touch). There exists two possible scenarios:

    1. Trump colluded with Russians. This should then lead to articles of Impeachment. Wouldn't you want a President OUT as soon as possible if he did this sort of thing?

    2. Trump didn't collude with the Russians. In this case you would want this waste of tax payers money to be ended as soon as possible.

    In either scenario you want the investigation to be finished rapidly. Only if you think there was no collusion and want to simply damage Trump would you want it to drag its feet.
    It is irrelevant what partisans on either side want. What matters is what is necessary for the investigation to be conducted in accordance with the law and best practice. Regardless of what the truth is, the investigation's conclusions about the truth must be based on the best possible evidence. Your statement--and Gowdy's--clearly show that you believe justice should be subservient to partisan considerations. These investigations two to three years on average and this particular investigation is clearly more complex than most, given the number of people involved and indicted. To imply that it is taking an inordinately long time and shout at those in charge of it signals either extraordinary stupidity or a particularly malignant flavour of partisanship.

    The gag-inducing sophomoric grandstanding was indeed a nice touch, but only because it exposed in a mere second just what a fucking hypocrite that clown is. Everyone who isn't a mark knows a bullshitter on sight, and everyone in that room with half a brain realized at that moment that Mr. Benghazi really is just as full of shit as it appears.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #146
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Investigations take time. That's not dragging feet.
    Time moves differently in Trumpland where Lewk has made his home.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/how-l...r-trump-2017-6



    Those that produce indictments: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...nvestigations/
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It is irrelevant what partisans on either side want. What matters is what is necessary for the investigation to be conducted in accordance with the law and best practice. Regardless of what the truth is, the investigation's conclusions about the truth must be based on the best possible evidence. Your statement--and Gowdy's--clearly show that you believe justice should be subservient to partisan considerations. These investigations two to three years on average and this particular investigation is clearly more complex than most, given the number of people involved and indicted. To imply that it is taking an inordinately long time and shout at those in charge of it signals either extraordinary stupidity or a particularly malignant flavour of partisanship.

    The gag-inducing sophomoric grandstanding was indeed a nice touch, but only because it exposed in a mere second just what a fucking hypocrite that clown is. Everyone who isn't a mark knows a bullshitter on sight, and everyone in that room with half a brain realized at that moment that Mr. Benghazi really is just as full of shit as it appears.
    What exactly creates a delay? They have a team working to process information. Talk to everyone they want to talk with and get it done. Our entire system is slow as hell (not just this investigation) and its really nonsensical. In the private world when an employee has an arbitration dispute shit gets handled fast. I'm not going to pretend they have the same levels of complexity but you'd think that the idea that the leader of the free world is currently in power and *might* (doubt it) have broken the law and conspired with a foreign power would lead to someone to give it some gas? Like seriously "steal an election and in the last year of your term you might be in trouble!" is insane.

  28. #148
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What exactly creates a delay? They have a team working to process information. Talk to everyone they want to talk with and get it done. Our entire system is slow as hell (not just this investigation) and its really nonsensical. In the private world when an employee has an arbitration dispute shit gets handled fast.
    That's because arbitration is designed to be fast and (frankly) incredibly one-sided. This is a criminal investigation and the balance of power between the investigators and the investigated is nothing like one-sided.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    That's because arbitration is designed to be fast and (frankly) incredibly one-sided. This is a criminal investigation and the balance of power between the investigators and the investigated is nothing like one-sided.
    It is literally handled by a third party. The purpose is to be quick and effective and avoid the insanely slow court system.

  30. #150
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    It is literally handled by a third party. The purpose is to be quick and effective and avoid the insanely slow court system.
    Yes, it is designed to be quick and "effective". And yes, it's handled by a third party. The same third party the employer contracts with to take charge of arbitration proceedings. The "third party" has a relationship with one of the two sides in arbitration. Furthermore, unlike an employee who such an arbiter will only see for that one or handful of proceedings, they will see the employer and its regular representatives every time, so s/he not only has a relationship, they literally KNOW the employer and its lawyers from regular contact. The system bills itself as being impartial. It never is in the type of proceeding you referred to. Arbitration works (mostly) the way it is supposed to when it's done between rough equals.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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