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Thread: Can American conservatism survive intact & unadulterated?

  1. #151
    I wouldn't be surprised if the investigation is going at the pace its going at because of how many people its snaring, not how difficult its. Experts are talking about NRA tax filings now. America could very well be looking at a real life Hail Hydra moment when this gets all wrapped up.


    Wonder if Lewk knows where Benghazi would fall in Aimless' chart.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  2. #152
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Plus, the scope of the investigation is to investigate Russian interference in the 2016 election, not just what part Trump had in it.
    It's getting closer now, the fear that we have held off for so long
    It's getting closer now to where we know there can be no return
    It's makes no sense to me, what has been set in motion here today
    It makes no sense anymore, was it too little, too late? Or too much too fast?

  3. #153
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What exactly creates a delay? They have a team working to process information. Talk to everyone they want to talk with and get it done. Our entire system is slow as hell (not just this investigation) and its really nonsensical. In the private world when an employee has an arbitration dispute shit gets handled fast. I'm not going to pretend they have the same levels of complexity but you'd think that the idea that the leader of the free world is currently in power and *might* (doubt it) have broken the law and conspired with a foreign power would lead to someone to give it some gas? Like seriously "steal an election and in the last year of your term you might be in trouble!" is insane.
    Is there some reason why you don't understand the difference between the simple civil matters dealt with in arbitration on the private sector and a massively complex criminal investigation involving millions of pages of documentation, convoluted paper- & money trails, dozens of targets, dozens of witnesses etc?

    In other news, American conservatism is beyond salvation:https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ple/761841002/
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  4. #154
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Trump made some horrible comments in Montana. He goes over the line, and lowers the bar so often, the 'new normal' has become pathetic.

    I can't understand how or why 'conservatives' continue to support this man, when none of his policies are actually 'conservative'. It's as if the paranoid, conspiratorial, anti-globalist, anti-immigrant (and yes, white nationalist) wing of the GOP has taken over the traditional conservative debate about size and scope of government. Now it's not just healthy skepticism, or run-of-the mill anti-establishment, but deconstructing the administrative state and weird Deep State stuff.

    It might be common when people vote against their own self-interests, but it's NOT common when both congress and senate fail to keep a president (or his cabinet) in check when they violate ethical norms, stoke mistrust in our Dept. of Justice and Intelligence agencies, damage relationships with foreign allies and trading partners, or threaten to leave international groups, all while cozying up to dictators. This is NOT normal! Not even by 'conservative' standards.

  5. #155
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Black people are a threat to all, GOP-endorsed white supremacist candidate believes:

    https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/20...g-black/220614

    Anyone who defends the GOP today is full of shit.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  6. #156
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    The GOP is now more racist that UKIP.

    Seriously, saying that would get you tossed out of UKIP.

    UKIP
    It's getting closer now, the fear that we have held off for so long
    It's getting closer now to where we know there can be no return
    It's makes no sense to me, what has been set in motion here today
    It makes no sense anymore, was it too little, too late? Or too much too fast?

  7. #157
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    UKIP are bad by the UK's standards but not that bad compared to most other nations. Most continental European nations have parties worse than UKIP and until recently I argued that first past the post was what stopped such extreme parties like the FN, AfD, Golden Dawn, Jobbik, FPO etc taking hold here.

    The GOP have dismissed my argument on that subject completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #158
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    The GOP has made its choice:

    http://www.rollcall.com/news/politic...ling-overblown

    Not surprising, but still chilling.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #159
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    The GOP used to be a party that believed in Rule of Law -- now they diss and dismiss the FBI, and all Intelligence Agencies.
    They used to advocate for "Free Trade and Free Markets" -- now they're Trump Tariff anti-globalism protectionists.
    They used to defend the 1st Amendment and a Free Press -- now the leader of their party is anti-press and calls them The Enemy of The People.
    Even Reagan-era Republicans embraced immigration, as part of our liberal democratic values -- now they're xenophobic, anti-immigrant isolationists.
    They used to fight against over-reach of Executive powers -- but now want a SCOTUS judge that treats presidential powers almost sacrosanct.
    And they used to take National Defense, International Relations, and Diplomacy seriously -- until they let Trump's tantrums take over.


  10. #160
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    A dozen GOP reps make a bid to impeach Rosenstein, which would ultimately enable Trump to obstruct the Mueller investigation. Even if this fails--and it's likely to--the GOP's embrace of these tactics is extremely harmful. That it is also despicable goes without saying.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #161
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Shortly after Jeff Sessions bemoans universities creating a generation of snowflakes, the WH bans an experienced CNN reporter from an open press conference because she asked uncomfortable questions the last time she attended. This is of course both hilarious and deeply disturbing--Lewk's antidemocratic vision for the US is slowly being realized. Nevertheless, what fucking losers.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #162
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    A dozen GOP reps make a bid to impeach Rosenstein, which would ultimately enable Trump to obstruct the Mueller investigation. Even if this fails--and it's likely to--the GOP's embrace of these tactics is extremely harmful. That it is also despicable goes without saying.
    It's not likely to fail it's guaranteed to. But Trump can sack Rosenstein at will and could abuse this process to justify it to his base. "Look the GOP Senators wanted him sacked, the lying Democrats blocked it so I've done it".

    He truly is Nixon redux.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Shortly after Jeff Sessions bemoans universities creating a generation of snowflakes, the WH bans an experienced CNN reporter from an open press conference because she asked uncomfortable questions the last time she attended. This is of course both hilarious and deeply disturbing--Lewk's antidemocratic vision for the US is slowly being realized. Nevertheless, what fucking losers.
    There is nothing anti-democratic about choosing not to speak to the press. Y'all live in an insane world that think that being labeled a 'journalist' gives you extra special rights.

    Freedom of the press means you can't jail people for press coverage you dislike. It doesn't mean you are required to give interviews or subject yourself to questioning from a hostile agenda driven assholes.

  14. #164
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Bless your heart you little amateur fascist.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #165
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Oh, there's no "likely to" about it, it definitely fails. It's deliberately designed to, it literally cannot succeed. Congress recesses next week and such submissions do not last through the recess, nor can the House even try and move it out to the floor within that time frame. It's purely a campaign maneuver, they're signalling for their idiot constituents "see, I tried to do something about 'corruption' in DC"
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's not likely to fail it's guaranteed to. But Trump can sack Rosenstein at will and could abuse this process to justify it to his base. "Look the GOP Senators wanted him sacked, the lying Democrats blocked it so I've done it".

    He truly is Nixon redux.
    The better play is Trump sacking Rosenstein and then have his replacement keep Mueller around. It instantly takes the wind of out people's sails that he was fired due to his refusal to remove Mueller but still gets someone who has been fighting Congress every step of the way in their oversight duties.

  17. #167
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    The better play is Trump sacking Rosenstein and then have his replacement keep Mueller around. It instantly takes the wind of out people's sails that he was fired due to his refusal to remove Mueller but still gets someone who has been fighting Congress every step of the way in their oversight duties.
    That's nuts. Rosenstein has been following long-standing DoJ rules to protect and preserve sensitive information during an investigation. He's turned over millions of documents to congress, but isn't expected to give them absolutely everything.....especially when lapdogs like Nunes want to run the info over to the WH.

    Pretty rich to talk about congressional "oversight duties" when they've neglected unilateral presidential tariffs (that violate WTO rules), don't really give a shit about what Trump may have promised to Putin (in a 2 hour closed-door meeting without any witnesses), and even zeroed-out funding for cyber security for our elections. Oversight my ass.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That's nuts. Rosenstein has been following long-standing DoJ rules to protect and preserve sensitive information during an investigation. He's turned over millions of documents to congress, but isn't expected to give them absolutely everything.....especially when lapdogs like Nunes want to run the info over to the WH.

    Pretty rich to talk about congressional "oversight duties" when they've neglected unilateral presidential tariffs (that violate WTO rules), don't really give a shit about what Trump may have promised to Putin (in a 2 hour closed-door meeting without any witnesses), and even zeroed-out funding for cyber security for our elections. Oversight my ass.
    Actually no. Rosenstein doesn't get to decide what he gives to congress. Government bureaucrats don't get to trump elected officials.

  19. #169
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Actually no. Rosenstein doesn't get to decide what he gives to congress.
    Actually, yes he does. [i]Congress[i] has limits in what it can require him to hand over. If they want more, than they have to go to his boss (or, since his boss recused himself, his boss' boss). Of course, if POTUS starts forcing him to release materials in ways that compromise active investigations it could potentially open him up to obstruction of justice charges, which is why his advisors have managed to sit on him and convinced him to not stick his fingers in and start interfering.

    Government bureaucrats don't get to trump elected officials.
    He's a hand of the Executive Branch. And the Executive Branch is co-equal with Congress.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #170
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Actually no. Rosenstein doesn't get to decide what he gives to congress. Government bureaucrats don't get to trump elected officials.
    Pun intended?

    Elected officials can use closed committee hearings to get top-secret, sensitive info of ongoing investigations, as part of their 'oversight' of a co-equal branch of government. Discovery is a legal term with norms and precedents. But the Republicans won't have any of that. They are using the Mueller investigation as a political tool, to undermine the validity of the DoJ....so when the findings and conclusions are complete, and their recommendations are given to congress.....if *anyone* in Trump's orbit is implicated in *any* crime they will say it was a Witch Hunt, a Hoax, proof of a rigged system from The Deep State. Don't trust the DoJ, FBI, CIA, they're all conspiring against Trump!


  21. #171
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Of course, if POTUS starts forcing him to release materials in ways that compromise active investigations it could potentially open him up to obstruction of justice charges
    Which makes the nomination of Kavanaugh for SCOTUS part of this weird new political world hard to maneuver.....

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Actually, yes he does. [i]Congress[i] has limits in what it can require him to hand over. If they want more, than they have to go to his boss (or, since his boss recused himself, his boss' boss). Of course, if POTUS starts forcing him to release materials in ways that compromise active investigations it could potentially open him up to obstruction of justice charges, which is why his advisors have managed to sit on him and convinced him to not stick his fingers in and start interfering.



    He's a hand of the Executive Branch. And the Executive Branch is co-equal with Congress.
    And it rests within the power of the Congress to impeach the Executive Branch and Executive Branch members.

  23. #173
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    And it rests within the power of the Congress to impeach the Executive Branch and Executive Branch members.
    For High Crimes and Misdemeanors, yes. Not for refusing to comply with sub-legislative demands or declarations from Congress-critters. That falls under Contempt of Congress, but I don't think that amounts to much if levered against senior Executive officials. It's been done, most recently against Eric Holder in 2012, but it did precisely jack squat. Trump might always use it as an excuse to fire Rosenstein but he doesn't need an excuse in the first place and the factors keeping him from doing so already would still be there if Rosenstein was successfully held in contempt by Congress generally.

    I think both Trump and the party in general in Congress is waiting to see how the mid-term elections play before they decide whether they can move against Rosenstein or the rest of the investigation. Any hint of a "Saturday Night Massacre" before the election could easily play into the Dems hands in the Congressional elections.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post

    I think both Trump and the party in general in Congress is waiting to see how the mid-term elections play before they decide whether they can move against Rosenstein or the rest of the investigation. Any hint of a "Saturday Night Massacre" before the election could easily play into the Dems hands in the Congressional elections.
    Yeah I could see them waiting post election.

  25. #175
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    "Rosenstein doesn't get to decide what he gives to congress."

    "Yes he does."

    "Government bureaucrats don't get to trump elected officials."

    "They are co-equal."

    "Congress can impeach him."

    "Only for high crimes and misdemeanors."

    It's interesting that, nowhere in this exchange do we see any indication of Lewk actually acknowledging the counters to his bizarre claims and changing his view of the conduct of GOP legislators accordingly.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #176
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Looks like Wilbur Ross lied to Congress while under oath no less:

    https://www.aclu.org/blog/voting-rig...s-census-cover

    Consequences? Do you think there will be any? Do you think he'll be impeached given that lying to Congress is an impeachable offense?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #177
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #178
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Yes, those great people. I just recently ran across someone who was so astoundingly moronic to believe a website which claimed that Angela Merkel herself ordered the coverup of a double murder (the murderer was a rather disturbed immigrant and the victims were a mother and her toddler) - said coverup was supposedly invoked by censoring the press to only report the murder of the woman. And also not mention the rather gruesome details.

    Of course the idiot didn't really apologize when confronted with the truth that our press usually shows restraint when reporting about children as victims (the press code they adhere to states as much) and that our press did report about a double murder regardless. No coverup anywhere.

    This argument, by the way, was created when I challenged him on the fact that Facebook outright bans nudity but only has restrictions for graphic violence.

    And then they promptly doubled down by going full potatoe when I pointed out that there's no censorship of the press in Germany because you are not allowed to lie about the Holocaust. Yes, that's really a threat to freedom of speech anywhere: Not being allowed to lie about the murder of several million people.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    "Rosenstein doesn't get to decide what he gives to congress."

    "Yes he does."

    "Government bureaucrats don't get to trump elected officials."

    "They are co-equal."

    "Congress can impeach him."

    "Only for high crimes and misdemeanors."

    It's interesting that, nowhere in this exchange do we see any indication of Lewk actually acknowledging the counters to his bizarre claims and changing his view of the conduct of GOP legislators accordingly.
    Aimless paint me a picture for me. Congress demands information on X via subpoena, DOJ official says "fuck off I'm giving you nothing and you can't make me." What is the legal remedy that Congress has?

  30. #180
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    If Congress demands something that cannot or should not be surrendered, Congress can absolutely get fucked. If Congress disagrees, I'm sure there are things it can try, but Congress–or, rather, the shady GOP fuckwits in it–prefers this absurd circus because these fuckers know they're wrong and they can do nothing but grandstand and undermine justice itself.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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