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Thread: Can American conservatism survive intact & unadulterated?

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Brutal. Watch with sound on to the end.

    Whoo talk about family feud.

  2. #212
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Wouldn't want to be at their holiday family meal, and I feel really bad for their parents, but way to go for the siblings for speaking out with a unified voice.

  3. #213
    Nah, the dude is a loon. Tea party candidate endorsed by Palin and Joe Arpaio. He already attacked his family for being hiliary supporters.

    Not really a feud when you're the asshole that everyone stands up against cause they are sick of your shit.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #214
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Guys, I hope you're more ready for this than I was. I give you the dumbest take of the year, courtesy of American Conservatism in 2018:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #215
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    The president of the US is openly propagating the most enduring antisemitic meme in the book, and senior legislators are ready to fall in line. Guys, the Democratic Institutions fairy isn't doing its job.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  6. #216
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    ???
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #217
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #218
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    But it's no surprise. Kavanaugh wasn't afraid to allude to this conspiracy theory during his hearing, before an audience of tens of millions.

    ...

    You think George Soros being a political activist is the most enduring antisemitic meme in the book? Aimless, you are flirting with going off the deep end.

  9. #219
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    ...

    You think George Soros being a political activist is the most enduring antisemitic meme in the book? Aimless, you are flirting with going off the deep end.
    Rich and powerful Jewish boogeymen working behind the scenes to undermine the true volk with the help of a fifth column of leftist interlopers is a pretty old meme, yes. Both of these comments are clear dog-whistle references to the Soros conspiracy meme, which is just an updated iteration of the memes that previously featured names such as "Rothschild". This theory is regularly invoked by conspiracy theorists, and used in the same way they use other conspiracy theories. It has evolved organically over decades from the general antisemitic sentiment against Soros. It is regularly endorsed by prominent antisemitic and outright neo-Nazi organizations, and by notoriously antisemitic leaders such as Orban. It is exactly what it looks like.

    Now, I don't much care whether or not you wish to agree with this interpretation--after all, it is entirely in character for you to contort yourself into a pretzel trying to interpret loons and scumbags in the most absurdly charitable and blinkered manner possible--but I'm afraid I have to categorically reject any remarks about going off the deep end from a person whom I believe doesn't even know that the pool is there.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #220
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Rich and powerful Jewish boogeymen working behind the scenes to undermine the true volk with the help of a fifth column of leftist interlopers is a pretty old meme, yes. Both of these comments are clear dog-whistle references to the Soros conspiracy meme, which is just an updated iteration of the memes that previously featured names such as "Rothschild". This theory is regularly invoked by conspiracy theorists, and used in the same way they use other conspiracy theories. It has evolved organically over decades from the general antisemitic sentiment against Soros. It is regularly endorsed by prominent antisemitic and outright neo-Nazi organizations, and by notoriously antisemitic leaders such as Orban. It is exactly what it looks like.
    Rich and powerful boogeyman working behind the scenes to undermine the true volk with the help of a fifth column of interlopers is a pretty old meme, yes. It also happens to also perfectly describe how many on the left feel about the Koch brothers. Maybe they too are in the secret Jewish cabal.

    Are there those who also view Soros through their lens of antisemitism - undoubtedly. Does that make any criticism of Soros' activism now antisemitic?

    Now, I don't much care whether or not you wish to agree with this interpretation--after all, it is entirely in character for you to contort yourself into a pretzel trying to interpret loons and scumbags in the most absurdly charitable and blinkered manner possible--but I'm afraid I have to categorically reject any remarks about going off the deep end from a person whom I believe doesn't even know that the pool is there.
    Well that escalated quickly. If it makes you feel better, I try and interpret everyone's actions in the most charitable manner possible, not just the loons and scumbags.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 10-05-2018 at 06:41 PM.

  11. #221
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I agree with Enoch on this. There are almost certainly those who rant and accuse about Soros out of anti-semitism. It does not follow that all such ranting and accusations are anti-semtic on their face. One can do it just because he's a liberal financier, an apostate from all the conservative financiers the liberals themselves bash, including those who are themselves Jews. The only thing glaringly anti-semitic here is you seeing Soros as literally nothing BUT Jewish.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #222
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I agree with Enoch on this. There are almost certainly those who rant and accuse about Soros out of anti-semitism. It does not follow that all such ranting and accusations are anti-semtic on their face. One can do it just because he's a liberal financier, an apostate from all the conservative financiers the liberals themselves bash, including those who are themselves Jews. The only thing glaringly anti-semitic here is you seeing Soros as literally nothing BUT Jewish.
    I did not realize you'd gotten a new job developing Federalist memes, but I guess it's just a hop and a skip away from your usual takes.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #223
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Rich and powerful boogeyman working behind the scenes to undermine the true volk with the help of a fifth column of interlopers is a pretty old meme, yes. It also happens to also perfectly describe how many on the left feel about the Koch brothers. Maybe they too are in the secret Jewish cabal.
    The leftist version is its own entity. It is frequently conspiratorial--although I presume that, by any objective metric, the Koch brothers' influence on US politics is probably greater than that of Soros--but not all conspiracies are the same, even when they are similar in nature. That is why I specified that the Soros conspiracy evolved out of antisemitic memes that highlight his Jewish background. By changing my sentence, you substantially changed the meaning. I can see how that might be mistaken for an insightful observation in some circles, but in this matter it simply serves to obscure crucial details.

    That said, even if we accept your inane point, your president and his legislators and your equivalent of state media are not pushing an anti-Koch conspiracy theory born out of sentiment against the religious or ethnic group known as the Koch brothers. They are pushing an antisemitic conspiracy theory, and Galaxy Brains like you and Fuzzy are desperately trying to give them cover because--what? Because you want to scratch that "more rational than thou"-itch a little.

    Are there those who also view Soros through their lens of antisemitism - undoubtedly. Does that make any criticism of Soros' activism now antisemitic?
    This is a delightfully Lewkowskian line of reasoning. No, it is not antisemitic in and of itself to criticize Soros; this particular kind of dog-whistle messaging, however, arises from antisemitic conspiracies, and it serves as a signal to groups wherein antisemitic ideas flourish, such as the alt right and far right movements that are now helping to shore up Republican support. It isn't misogynist in and of itself to care about false rape allegations, or racist to care about violence against white farmers in South Africa, but people who invoke these particular memes frequently do so out of misogyny or racism, as a dog whistle to their compatriots. A person's actions and words should be judged in context of both their previous words and actions as well as the context of ideas--not in isolation.

    Well that escalated quickly. If it makes you feel better, I try and interpret everyone's actions in the most charitable manner possible, not just loons and scumbags.
    *shrug* This approach will lead you astray when applied to the wrong people, but obviously in these discussions there are no personal consequences.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #224
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The leftist version is its own entity. It is frequently conspiratorial--although I presume that, by any objective metric, the Koch brothers' influence on US politics is probably greater than that of Soros--but not all conspiracies are the same, even when they are similar in nature. That is why I specified that the Soros conspiracy evolved out of antisemitic memes that highlight his Jewish background. By changing my sentence, you substantially changed the meaning. I can see how that might be mistaken for an insightful observation in some circles, but in this matter it simply serves to obscure crucial details.

    That said, even if we accept your inane point, your president and his legislators and your equivalent of state media are not pushing an anti-Koch conspiracy theory born out of sentiment against the religious or ethnic group known as the Koch brothers. They are pushing an antisemitic conspiracy theory, and Galaxy Brains like you and Fuzzy are desperately trying to give them cover because--what? Because you want to scratch that "more rational than thou"-itch a little.
    I know it is very fashionable to believe that every one who disagrees with you, (you being used generally, not specific to Aimless on The World Forgotten forums) does so because of a moral shortcoming or other character fault, but that is a dangerous and wrongheaded thing to believe. Indeed, there are times when we might mistake moral turpitude in our opposition that was neither intended nor present. Falling into the easy trap of believing every thought or action that comes from our opponents is borne from wickedness is not doing you any favors, nor are favors being done for your arguments. You don't need Trump to be making antisemitic tweets for him to be wrong about a huge number of things - including Soros' involvement in this - and for him to be horrible about the things he might be right about. Democratic institutions need not be failing because you believe mentioning the name Soros carries with it some kind of Bloody Mary like evocation for racists.

    This is a delightfully Lewkowskian line of reasoning. No, it is not antisemitic in and of itself to criticize Soros; this particular kind of dog-whistle messaging, however, arises from antisemitic conspiracies, and it serves as a signal to groups wherein antisemitic ideas flourish, such as the alt right and far right movements that are now helping to shore up Republican support. It isn't misogynist in and of itself to care about false rape allegations, or racist to care about violence against white farmers in South Africa, but people who invoke these particular memes frequently do so out of misogyny or racism, as a dog whistle to their compatriots. A person's actions and words should be judged in context of both their previous words and actions as well as the context of ideas--not in isolation.
    If you think only antisemites don't like Soros, then you are simply uninformed. If, for the sake of argument, there was evidence that George Soros did pay to astroturf the Kavanaugh nomination, would tweeting his involvement by name still count as a dog whistle?
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 10-05-2018 at 09:12 PM.

  15. #225
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I did not realize you'd gotten a new job developing Federalist memes, but I guess it's just a hop and a skip away from your usual takes.
    Whether I agree with their view is irrelevant to whether they can have the view without being anti-semitic, you petulant brat. You insist this is a dog-whistle arising from anti-semitic conspiracizing. Demonstrate it. Because I've been having to hear this stuff against Soros for years and his ethno-religious background never played a part. Instead it was all about him being a leftist financier when his "class" is supposed to be on the conservatives' side.

    And seriously, on what basis do you presume the criticism of the Koch brothers is not on the same basis? That sort of sentiment spreads just as easily among groups like labor as it does among the rural.

    Am I scratching some "more rational than thou" itch? I suppose it's possible. It's hard not to scratch something like that when you're doing your level best to act like a leftist version of Lewk.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #226
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Soros being a left-wing financier is a necessary but not sufficient condition for this not to be antisemitic.

    The other question I'd have asked is whether this is actually funded by Soros or not? If Soros is behind this then he seems fair game to be criticised as an individual and not a race.

    If on the other hand he's not actually behind this and people are just pinning this on a Jewish bogey figure then yes that does have the whiff of antisemitism still.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #227
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I agree with Enoch on this. There are almost certainly those who rant and accuse about Soros out of anti-semitism. It does not follow that all such ranting and accusations are anti-semtic on their face. One can do it just because he's a liberal financier, an apostate from all the conservative financiers the liberals themselves bash, including those who are themselves Jews. The only thing glaringly anti-semitic here is you seeing Soros as literally nothing BUT Jewish.
    Disagree strongly. The most vociferous attacks on him have always been from the far-right. And it's quite obvious why they chose him. Especially when they regularly reference his Jewishness and his alleged actions in a WWII ghetto. The fact more mainstream Republicans are now going after him does not somehow remove the anti-Semitic element of the attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Soros being a left-wing financier is a necessary but not sufficient condition for this not to be antisemitic.

    The other question I'd have asked is whether this is actually funded by Soros or not? If Soros is behind this then he seems fair game to be criticised as an individual and not a race.

    If on the other hand he's not actually behind this and people are just pinning this on a Jewish bogey figure then yes that does have the whiff of antisemitism still.
    Soros gets blamed for absolutely everything. So yes, he's not behind a vast majority of the things he gets blamed for. Brits are the only ones who have a rational reason to hate him, given his shorting of the pound a few decades ago.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #228
    I've actually had someone come into work asking for material exposing how Soros was funding the destruction of America. I laughed at first, but the guy was dead serious.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  19. #229
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Seems to me "conservatives" should be more careful with their conspiracy theories. Avoiding the "dog whistles" that attract bigots would be a good start (and it would be charitable to say political leaders are unaware of them), but it's probably easier to cast a wide net first and disavow later.

    We all know both conservatives and liberals have paranoid conspiratorial-minded folks among them, but the majority of hate groups are right-wing. In the Trump era of tribalism/nationalism it's escalated (or been exposed, not sure which, maybe both?) That has really hurt the GOP over the long run, IMO.

  20. #230
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Even Grassley is claiming Soros paid the sex assault victim protesters. Absolutely disgraceful.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #231
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Even Grassley is claiming Soros paid the sex assault victim protesters. Absolutely disgraceful.
    Is there evidence of it?

    If not then Jew-conspiracy is absolutey disgraceful and antisemitic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Soros gets blamed for absolutely everything. So yes, he's not behind a vast majority of the things he gets blamed for. Brits are the only ones who have a rational reason to hate him, given his shorting of the pound a few decades ago.
    Precisely my point

    Blaming your troubles on a Jew without reason or evidence is antisemitic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #232
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    No, absolutely none. It started on the fringes of social media, was repeated by Grassley, retweeted by Trump, and promoted by Giuliani.

    Edit: Irony is dead.

    Last edited by Loki; 10-06-2018 at 07:16 PM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #233
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    https://www.ft.com/content/766918c0-...6-b9069bde0956

    Echoing the fears in my response to those pooh-poohing concerns about Trump as being hysterical hyperbole. Obviously not impossible to turn this around, but it'll take a lot of time and effort.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  24. #234
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #235
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    This is quite revealing: https://www.npr.org/2018/10/12/65687...ks-on-opponent

    An elected (and indicted) GOP legislator appears to believe his constituency consists of xenophobic racists who don't care about the truth. Is he right? Perhaps not, but several of his fellow GOP legislators seem to share his views.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #236
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/theres...panic?ref=home

    For fools comparing the Soros bullshit to the Koch pushback
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  27. #237
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    That's my state, and yes it's that bad.

    Wagner has a campaign office in a strip mall where suburban and rural meet at the crossroad; there's a York County donut shop (with deep conservative roots), a pizza place/bar that also sells micro-brewery, a high-end women's clothing shop that caters to the country club types, a UPS mailbox store, and a hair/nail salon. Across the street is a private childcare center, a dermatologist that specializes in 'cosmetic' procedures, a small light-industrial truck distribution type place, and a regional bank. On the other side of the stop light intersection is the county Vo-Tech school, a gas station, and a Dunkin Donuts. A bit further down is a big grocery store and a Cracker Barrel, with some hotels and senior living facilities in between. But there are also residential homes (some with in-home businesses) and small neighborhoods close-by.

    It's a great location: a main road connecting rural areas to the suburbs and "the city", and close to interstate exit ramps. His window signs are total Trump--Drain The Swamp, Make America Great Again, Build The Wall, etc. It's a good example of our changing demographics and identity politics. Almost everyone 'from around here' would say it's a rural area that got swallowed by growth, and gentrified as a suburb....and that's ok to a point, but they don't want to be like "the city". Because that's where all the crime is, and the schools are bad, and the water is contaminated with lead, with Section 8 housing and food stamp welfare deadbeats, homeless people and crack addicts, and illegal immigrants who can't speak English.

    Yeah, Wagner picked the perfect place for his tribal politicking. It's probably no mistake that he chose a place where gerrymandering was rampant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This is quite revealing: https://www.npr.org/2018/10/12/65687...ks-on-opponent

    An elected (and indicted) GOP legislator appears to believe his constituency consists of xenophobic racists who don't care about the truth. Is he right? Perhaps not, but several of his fellow GOP legislators seem to share his views.
    See my previous post. This fear tactic can work in areas that are changing, because change is hard. Some people care less about truth than maintaining the status quo, and some people would rather lie and stoke fear than embrace change.

  28. #238
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...ration-uproar/

    These snowflakes in the GOP lack self control; it's all that masculine energy. At least they've learned not to punch people who ask them questions.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #239
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...ration-uproar/

    These snowflakes in the GOP lack self control; it's all that masculine energy. At least they've learned not to punch people who ask them questions.
    I can actually kinda believe the excuse the senator's people are putting out. He's a professional egomaniac, that's the kind of self-absorbed bubble a lot of our national politicians seem to operate in when it comes to personal interactions with constituents.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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