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Thread: Can American conservatism survive intact & unadulterated?

  1. #241
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Back to basics: why aren't Republicans concerned about our $779 Billion deficit?

    One main tenet of "conservatism" is supposedly fiscal responsibility with a criticism for deficits, right? But moving the goal posts to fit their political agenda is acceptable (deficits only matter when Democrats have the majority)...because then they can use that as an excuse to cut spending on SS, Medicare, Medicaid?
    It doesn't appear that there is anyone in Washington concerned about the debt or the deficit. Beyond paying fiscal responsibility lip service, that is. Unfortunately I fear that will be the case for the foreseeable future. Entitlements, tax cuts, and military spending being third rails.

  2. #242
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    It doesn't appear that there is anyone in Washington concerned about the debt or the deficit. Beyond paying fiscal responsibility lip service, that is. Unfortunately I fear that will be the case for the foreseeable future. Entitlements, tax cuts, and military spending being third rails.
    Tax cuts aren't a third rail for Republicans. It's one of the first things they do after getting majority rule. The claim is that tax cuts for corporations and the top 10% of asset/wealth owners will spur growth, increase GDP, and either grow gov't revenue or be revenue neutral. "Tax cuts pay for themselves" is trickle-down economics 101. Then they increase military spending, using that imaginary future revenue (voo-doo economics). Then they say we're in the red because we spend too much money on "social welfare" programs, so that's what must be cut in order to balance our budget.

  3. #243
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Q: Could American 'conservatism' actually work if they enacted their policy dreams?

  4. #244
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    It doesn't appear that there is anyone in Washington concerned about the debt or the deficit. Beyond paying fiscal responsibility lip service, that is. Unfortunately I fear that will be the case for the foreseeable future. Entitlements, tax cuts, and military spending being third rails.
    The problem is that Bush Jr. taught them that they could get away with a budgetary policy of bread and circuses. They can just cut taxes again and again and not worry themselves all that much about making painful cuts to spending as well to keep the deficit and debt from ballooning.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    It doesn't appear that there is anyone in Washington concerned about the debt or the deficit. Beyond paying fiscal responsibility lip service, that is. Unfortunately I fear that will be the case for the foreseeable future. Entitlements, tax cuts, and military spending being third rails.
    https://www.budget.senate.gov/rankin...ning-a-surplus
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  6. #246
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Steve King in a truly remarkable interview with an Austrian far-right website:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0a8f17eec6001

    An elected GOP representative.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  7. #247
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    JFC, this entire thread of tweets:

    https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1053714309321277443

    The GOP is all in. Utterly contemptible.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #248
    This discussion came up elsewhere and a few points were mentioned that I figured were relevant here. The main point being that the title here suggests conservatism had some sort of floor. Conservatism has been treading down the racism route since at least the 1960s with the Southern Strategy. Nixon's war on drugs as a covert war on blacks, Reagan's "law and order" to oppress blacks, their efforts to reach out to those who killed civil rights activists, etc. There are no "'principled, genuine, conservative principles", its always been about aristocracy, a strict social hierarchy where the law is used to protect the top but not bind them, and bind but not protect those farther from the top. Lewk and his alt-right friends have simply been more direct and blunt than a majority of republicans have been for the past few decades.

    The Trump effect? A stunning number of evangelicals will now accept politicians’ ‘immoral’ acts.
    In just five years, white evangelicals have become much more likely to say a person who commits an “immoral” act can behave ethically in a public role. In 2011, just 30 percent of these evangelicals said this, but that number has more than doubled to 72 percent in a recent [2016, ed.] survey, a 42 point swing. (In 2011 44% of all Americans felt this way, by 2016 that number was up to 61%, a movement of 17 points.)

    Most Say WikiLeaks Release Harms Public Interest
    75% of Republicans and 53% of Democrats said that Wikileaks release of classified diplomatic communications harms the public interest in 2010
    https://today.yougov.com/topics/poli...test-wikileaks
    12% of Republicans and 48% of Democrats say that Wikileaks release of John Podesta's emails harms the public interest in 2016.

    Republicans Love the Same Attack on Syria They Hated When Obama Considered It
    22% of Republicans and 37% of Democrats supported President Obama issuing missile strikes against Syria in 2013, 86% of Republicans and 38% of Democrats supported President Trump striking Syria in 2017, a 64 point swing for Republicans, a 1 point change for Democrats.

    Putin's Image Rises in U.S., Mostly Among Republicans
    12% of Republicans and 15% of Democrats had a favorable view of Vladimir Putin in 2015, 32% of Republicans and 10% of Democrats have a favorable view of him in 2017, a 20 point swing for Republicans, a 5 point change for Democrats.

    All Of A Sudden, Russia Has Become A Partisan Issue
    17% of Republicans and 18% of Democrats said Russia was an ally of the US in July 2016, 31% of Republicans and 16% of Democrats saw them as an ally six months later in December 2016, a 14 point swing for Republicans and a 2 point change for Democrats.

    Americans Are More Positive About Their Taxes This Year
    39% of Republicans and 64% of Democrats thought their income tax rate was fair in 2016, 56% of Republicans and 69% of Democrats thought that their income tax rate was fair in 2017, a 17 point swing for Republicans and a 4 point change for Democrats. (The income tax rate did not change between 2016 and 2017, ed.)

    Donald Trump's election flips both parties' views of the economy
    When Republican voters in Wisconsin were asked in October 2016 whether the economy had gotten better or worse “over the past year,” they said “worse’’ — by a margin of 28 points. But when they were asked the very same question [in March 2017], they said “better” — by a margin of 54 points. That’s a net swing of 82 percentage points between late October 2016 and mid-March 2017.

    Americans Think Trump Will Be Worst President Since Nixon
    "Forty-two percent of Trump voters think he should be allowed to have a private email server to just 39 percent who think he shouldn't be allowed to,"

    These line up pretty solidly with Lewk's, and even Dread's, inability to take a firm stance on key issues. All this from the party who wants to claim they are the party of "national security", "fiscal responsibility", "traditional marriage", "facts before feels", They're nothing more than a party who hamstrings federal investigations, passes $1.2 trillion tax cuts to balloon the deficit, elected and defend a three time married adulterer, and has an unhealthy fascination with talking heads like Sean Hannity.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 10-23-2018 at 01:49 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  9. #249
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    It doesn't appear that there is anyone in Washington concerned about the debt or the deficit. Beyond paying fiscal responsibility lip service, that is. Unfortunately I fear that will be the case for the foreseeable future. Entitlements, tax cuts, and military spending being third rails.
    That's the way it works with populists: They make a lot of promises they cannot even begin to pay long-term. They usually also commit to those promises. And then, when the bills are due and the problems begin to appear they lose power.

    Of course, anyone after them then has the unthankful job of cleaning up which increases unhappiness due to austerity measures. Which makes another populist's promises sound grand.

    And the cycle begins again.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  10. #250
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    This discussion came up elsewhere and a few points were mentioned that I figured were relevant here. The main point being that the title here suggests conservatism had some sort of floor. Conservatism has been treading down the racism route since at least the 1960s with the Southern Strategy. Nixon's war on drugs as a covert war on blacks, Reagan's "law and order" to oppress blacks, their efforts to reach out to those who killed civil rights activists, etc.
    Good post, OG.

    I think many conservatives did try to "raise the floor", especially after Brown v Board of Education and then the Civil Rights Act. But the racism of "The Greatest Generation" (including my own parents) is a pretty hard nut to crack. Racism had been part of our society, culture, and political institutions for so long, since our beginning in fact, that it took multiple generations to change attitudes....let alone the awareness of power structures that enabled it.

    I can remember when Country Clubs and high-end hotels were Restricted (no blacks, no Jews) and schools were racially segregated. My Indiana high school used a mandatory busing program, just so it could retain federal educational funds for being 'racially diverse'. Racists (like my dad) were angry about forced integration in public schools, and he stopped going to basketball games (even to watch me dance at half-time) because there were "too many jungle bunnies" on the team. But if a legislator supported red-lining policies in Real Estate or Insurance that kept blacks from being neighbors, he supported that. He could hide his racist segregation beliefs under the cloak of freee market capitalism, and the Republican Party welcomed him with open arms.

    There are no "'principled, genuine, conservative principles", its always been about aristocracy, a strict social hierarchy where the law is used to protect the top but not bind them, and bind but not protect those farther from the top. Lewk and his alt-right friends have simply been more direct and blunt than a majority of republicans have been for the past few decades.
    Lewk sounds a lot like my dad (who died in 1979). I used to think that restrictive and sclerotic ideology would fade and die with older generations....but I was wrong.

  11. #251
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Same day as the synagogue attack...

    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #252
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #253
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Christ, those comments. Cringeworthy.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  14. #254
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Antisemitic candidate that won the GOP primary in his district by like 25 percent (?) is so bad that even the GOP has tried to distance itself from him and his own kids are trying to convince people not to vote for him:

    https://www.kansascity.com/news/poli...220812270.html
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #255
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Steve King is a good example of how the GOP has enabled bigotry

  16. #256
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  17. #257
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    But entirely expected.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #258
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Q: Could American 'conservatism' actually work if they enacted their policy dreams?
    What do you mean by "work?" I mean, of course it can work, if you want a Federal Government that does what it did pre-Great Depression. That's the goal, isn't it? Stop the Federal Government from making regulations, funding any level of public education, any kind of safety-net funding (social security, medicare/aid, food stamps, housing subsidies, job retraining, cash assistance, etc), stop any "investment" of Federal tax dollars into anything except military (infrastructure, basic science, ear-mark type stuff, everything else I don't know off the top of my head), and reduce taxes accordingly. Of course it can work.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
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  19. #259
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    What do you mean by "work?" I mean, of course it can work, if you want a Federal Government that does what it did pre-Great Depression. That's the goal, isn't it? Stop the Federal Government from making regulations, funding any level of public education, any kind of safety-net funding (social security, medicare/aid, food stamps, housing subsidies, job retraining, cash assistance, etc), stop any "investment" of Federal tax dollars into anything except military (infrastructure, basic science, ear-mark type stuff, everything else I don't know off the top of my head), and reduce taxes accordingly. Of course it can work.
    Clarification: I was asking HOW it could work.

    So much of today's "conservatism" seems to romanticize a history when teh gummint didn't have so many rules, regulations, or taxes that *burdened* the public....and thinking more people were freer back then! That's either self-protective denial, group amnesia, or deluded optimism. Maybe a combo deal, supersized.

  20. #260
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #261
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Guys listen I think US politics is really fucking weird.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/02/p...ory/index.html

    Mark Harris, a former pastor who stepped down from his congregation in 2017, is the GOP nominee in North Carolina's 9th District, which runs along the state's southern border below Charlotte and Fayetteville. Harris defeated three-term GOP Rep. Robert Pittenger in a May primary and is now facing Democrat Dan McCready. CNN rates the race toss-up, the most competitive designation.

    Harris, as the senior pastor of Charlotte's First Baptist Church, claimed Islam was "dangerous" and the work of Satan. He also said peace between Israel and the Palestinians could not be achieved until Muslims and Jews accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.

    During one sermon, Harris showed his congregation a conspiratorial video claiming that Islam was taking over the world, including the United States. [...]

    The video, which was posted on YouTube in 2009 and which the online fact-checking site Snopes called "Mostly False," alleges that European and American cultures are in terminal decline due to a coincidence of decreasing fertility rates and booming population growth among Muslim immigrants. "As the population shrinks, so does the culture," the narrator states.  

    The narrator later adds, "In a matter of years, Europe as we know it will cease to exist."
    Over Middle Eastern-sounding music, the video goes on to cite dubious statistics on various European countries, including the assertion that the average Muslim family in France has 8.1 children to the average non-Muslim family's 1.8. "In just 39 years, France will be an Islamic republic," the video claims.

    Pew research published in 2017 showed that while Muslim women in Europe do have more children than non-Muslim women, the difference was projected to be between 2.6 to 1.6 and 2.9 to 1.9 in France specifically. The research suggested that the Muslim portion of the European population is expected to increase over coming decades, although the data does not support the sweeping claims made in the video.

    The video goes on to warn of a similar pattern in the United States before claiming that Islamic organizations had met "three years ago" in Chicago to plan "to evangelize America through journalism, politics, education, and more." It's unclear what meeting is being referenced in the video.

    [...]

    "There is a satanic trinity of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. Satan is always a counterfeit," Harris said. "Listen to me, that is why the religion of Islam is so dangerous. It is the great counterfeit of our generation."

    [...]

    "It is the great counterfeit. That's why we've got to be so careful of political leaders who somehow just like to speak of it as one of the great world religions. Ladies and gentlemen, it is not," he said. "In right here in Revelation 13, can't you see where we're moving? Because in Revelation 13 there is a counterfeit death and there is a counterfeit resurrection."

    [...]

    In 2011, Harris delivered a sermon in which he recalled a recent trip he took to Israel and noted the tension that existed between Palestinians and Israelis. He went on to say there would be no peace between Jews and Muslims until they converted to Christianity.

    "You cannot be in that land, as powerful and as moving as it is, without realizing the incredible tension that is constantly in that land between the Palestinians and the Jews," Harris said. "There will never be peace in Jerusalem until the day comes that every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
    Harris continued to say that no inhabitants of Jerusalem -- whether they be Jewish, Muslim, or Christians without a personal relationship with Jesus -- would experience peace until they accepted the teachings of Jesus.

    [...]
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  22. #262
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Agreed!

    I'd been wondering about religion in politics, especially Christian Evangelicals, and the "National Prayer Breakfast". Why it's a tradition, how it started, etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fe..._organization)

    https://www.vox.com/2018/7/18/175865...ast-the-family

  23. #263
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Conservatism apparently means joking about lynchings in Mississippi...

    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #264
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Her inner Hyde is also her outer Hyde.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #265
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    https://www.weeklystandard.com/steph...-on-steve-king

    1:19. My fucking god.

    Steve King is dirt, and the GOP has embraced him.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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