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Thread: Could this be one of the dumbest ideas in modern history?

  1. #31
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Afaict McMaster, while being the most hawkish of Trump's appointees until now, believed it was necessary to prepare for war with NK but still regarded it as a last resort. At least, that's the view most consistent with the way others who know him well describe him. Bolton, in contrast, sees pre-emptive war with both NK and Iran as Plan A. His appointment represents, I think, an increase in aggression and in the likelihood of wars--as well as an increase in the likelihood of those wars having more disastrous outcomes. Even if it turns out to be just for show.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  2. #32
    Smooth Jazz Dispenser EmperorNorton's Avatar
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    Old mustachioed turd urges war on two fronts; fails to learn lesson from previously bodged war. What could possibly go wrong?

  3. #33
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Interesting, but I won't hold my breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #34
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Interesting, but I won't hold my breath.

    From what I've heard, NK and SK can't technically implement a peace treaty without the other combatants in the war signing on, like the US, China, whatever other countries got roped in via the UN... That said, with eyes open to likely duplicity from NK, I think these two talking is a net good.

    And, even though Trump is totally incompetent and has eviscerated his own State Department thereby reducing its ability to provide much-needed prep support, I think a meeting with NK's leadership is likely to be a net good too. I have never liked the idea that the US simply talking with its enemies at a high level is a reward in and of itself, and so should first be preceded by concessions from those enemies. I'm sure there are reasons for it, but from my limited understanding it smacks of arrogance and seems to stifle progress.
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  5. #35
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    I'm not holding my breath either nor do I think Trump is deserving of a Nobel Peace Prize but...

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/w...ize-korea.html

    I gotta admit hearing the howls of liberals if this were to happen would be fantastic.

  6. #36
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Did you miss the part where a vast majority of the world hates Trump?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Did you miss the part where a vast majority of the world hates Trump?
    It isn't likely but it would be rather poetic to have Trump follow Obama in getting an undeserved Noble Peace Prize. It has a certain symmetry to it.

  8. #38
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    No Lewk. 2% unemployment is unlikely. This is impossible.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #39
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Fuck's sake don't jinx it
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Fuck's sake don't jinx it
    Now we know Loki is to blame if it happens. Though I agree the Trump hate is too big for it to occur, its just a fun idle thought.

  11. #41
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Now we know Loki is to blame if it happens. Though I agree the Trump hate is too big for it to occur, its just a fun idle thought.
    The Trump hate is completely unnecessary. Trump's contribution was effectively repeatedly saying "I'mma nuke you first." No Nobel committee is ever going to give that the Peace Price.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #42
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    The Trump hate is completely unnecessary. Trump's contribution was effectively repeatedly saying "I'mma nuke you first." No Nobel committee is ever going to give that the Peace Price.
    They gave Yassir Arafat the prize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #43
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    I was embarrassed for the Nobel committee and for Obama when they gave it to him for no apparent reason.
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  14. #44
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They gave Yassir Arafat the prize.
    After Arafat was actually sitting down and negotiating yes. We haven't seen Trump doing that with North Korea.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  15. #45
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Fairly or not, Arafat had a far better global reputation than Trump. Kissinger is the better example, and the Vietnam War was a slightly bigger deal.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #46
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    After Arafat was actually sitting down and negotiating yes. We haven't seen Trump doing that with North Korea.
    Cogs are in motion, its entirely possible he will within the next couple of years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #47
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Cogs are in motion, its entirely possible he will within the next couple of years.
    Then he can be discussed in terms of peace prize potential after the next couple of years have passed.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  18. #48
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Then he can be discussed in terms of peace prize potential after the next couple of years have passed.
    Agreed. I only responded because the topic was being discussed and you were saying it couldn't happen. Its extremely unlikely but could in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #49
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Agreed. I only responded because the topic was being discussed and you were saying it couldn't happen. Its extremely unlikely but could in the future.
    And I'm right. I said it couldn't happen, that he would never be considered for the "contributions" he has made to peace on the Korean peninsula.

    "Trump's contribution was effectively repeatedly saying "I'mma nuke you first." No Nobel committee is ever going to give that the Peace Price."
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #50
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Think this is a very clear and informative piece on both this subject and on the related subject of Iran:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...c0a_story.html
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  21. #51
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    And I'm right. I said it couldn't happen, that he would never be considered for the "contributions" he has made to peace on the Korean peninsula.

    "Trump's contribution was effectively repeatedly saying "I'mma nuke you first." No Nobel committee is ever going to give that the Peace Price."
    Arafat's contribution was I am bombing you until he stopped. No Nobel committee would give that the peace prize either.

    If the committee can look past a history of actual bombings when a potential peace agreement for a decades old conflict is reached then looking past threats of bombings for a peace agreement to a decades old conflict should be possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #52
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Arafat's contribution was I am bombing you until he stopped. No Nobel committee would give that the peace prize either.
    But he DID stop (at least for a while, and the Nobel was given during that period when he was genuinely negotiating and not using force). Trump has not done this. Future actions are not on the table, we have no idea what they'd be. I'm talking about what he's actually done, and THAT material is not something the committee is ever going to offer a Nobel for. You may want to talk about something else, you often do. I don't give a rat's ass. You replied to ME, that means MY topic is the one we're discussing.

    If the committee can look past a history of actual bombings when a potential peace agreement for a decades old conflict is reached then looking past threats of bombings for a peace agreement to a decades old conflict should be possible.
    Arafat was part of that agreement. Trump has not participated here so far, beyond issuing nuclear threats. So from what incredibly warped perspective do you view doing nothing but trumpeting bellicose rhetoric as of Nobel consideration?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  23. #53
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Not to mention that he's actively fanning the flames on another front: Iran.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #54
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Think this is a very clear and informative piece on both this subject and on the related subject of Iran:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...c0a_story.html
    Yes, and why Trump approaching this from his business-oriented "art of the deal" is naive and dangerous. When Trump made his announcement today to withdraw from the Iran deal, he said the US was done with empty threats, and that he will keep his promises.

    Well, he's threatened NK with fire-and-fury, and total annihilation. And he's promised Israel that Iran will never ever have nuclear weapons.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yes, and why Trump approaching this from his business-oriented "art of the deal" is naive and dangerous. When Trump made his announcement today to withdraw from the Iran deal, he said the US was done with empty threats, and that he will keep his promises.

    Well, he's threatened NK with fire-and-fury, and total annihilation. And he's promised Israel that Iran will never ever have nuclear weapons.
    Eh screw Iran. The original 'deal' was garbage anyway.

  26. #56
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Reneging on the deal screws the US. It is an epic self-own.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #57
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Eh screw Iran. The original 'deal' was garbage anyway.
    Where did you get that idea? Breitbart or Fox? If it was such a garbage deal, why did France, Germany, the UK, the EU, China, and Russia all agree to the original terms?

    edit: and why did Macron, Merkel, and May <and even Boris Johnson> make special efforts to convince Trump to stay in the agreement if it was such "garbage"?
    Last edited by GGT; 05-09-2018 at 06:43 AM.

  28. #58
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Eh screw Iran. The original 'deal' was garbage anyway.
    The Deal aimed to stop Iran's nuclear program. It clearly stopped Iran's nuclear program. I take it you prefer either a nuclear Iran or yet another American war in the Middle East?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #59
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The Deal aimed to stop Iran's nuclear program. It clearly stopped Iran's nuclear program. I take it you prefer either a nuclear Iran or yet another American war in the Middle East?
    Seems like the US has been telegraphing to the world that, in diplomacy, we are unreliable negotiating partners and untrustworthy to stick by our word -- thinking not just the Iran deal, but the Paris Climate deal and the TPP. The lesson here, I suppose, is in the risk of making diplomatic deals without an official treaty ratified by the Senate. Trump has really gone out of his way to demonstrate that nothing done by the executive branch alone is stable from one administration to the next, no matter how sensible, beneficial, practical or smart the policy is. That's the rub, when the Obama administration negotiated all that stuff, they were forced to work around the Senate, which would never have worked with Obama on anything at all. And I'm guessing it seemed to them like an only moderately risky path to take because they expected the next administration to behave rationally, Republican or Democrat. Well, so much for that gamble.
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