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Thread: Soft on Crime

  1. #1
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    Default Soft on Crime

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ot-jailed.html

    "A mother who bashed her toddler so badly she had to be hospitalised has boasted about not being jailed and 'surviving' a storm of social media outrage against her.

    Lorien Norman was last week given a suspended jail sentence for a horrific attack in which she abused her eight-month-old daughter Evie with a kitchen serving spoon.

    In a text message sent by Norman to her former partner Shane McMahon after being sentenced, she said: 'So, I'm not going to jail... even with everyone against me on social media I still made it'.

    The adorable toddler was left with sickening bruises to her eyes, nose and cheeks at the hands of her mum, who after the incident threatened to throw her off a balcony.
    "
    Why is the judge retarded? Can anyone actually say this was justice? She later taunts the father about it and brags that she'll have custody in a year. Insane. Here's hoping someone bashes the mom's head in.
    Last edited by Lewkowski; 02-13-2018 at 05:11 AM. Reason: May not be right country

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    Didn't you post this back in September when it was first published? This is a woman with a lifelong history of psychiatric illness and trauma. She should've been sentenced to psychiatric care but was at least compelled to go complete a drug-rehab programme. I disagree, but I don't how enough about the case to have a well-founded opinion. She lost the right to have unsupervised visits with her children. She was given a suspended sentence, which means any further criminal offenses of any kind will see her in jail. While what she did was abominable, it was less abominable than many other examples of child abuse, and, so far as the court was able to ascertain, not sustained over time. You had two wife-beaters in prominent positions at your White House--and have elected a man almost certainly guilty of multiple sexual assaults as your president--and you want to talk about Australia being soft on crime? Gimme a break.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You had two wife-beaters in prominent positions at your White House--and have elected a man almost certainly guilty of multiple sexual assaults as your president--and you want to talk about Australia being soft on crime? Gimme a break.
    Aimless, you have to take into account that they are white, male and rich, so anything they do is OK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    Aimless, you have to take into account that they are white, male and rich, so anything they do is OK.
    True, and it's not like they're cops literally getting away with murder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Didn't you post this back in September when it was first published? This is a woman with a lifelong history of psychiatric illness and trauma. She should've been sentenced to psychiatric care but was at least compelled to go complete a drug-rehab programme. I disagree, but I don't how enough about the case to have a well-founded opinion. She lost the right to have unsupervised visits with her children. She was given a suspended sentence, which means any further criminal offenses of any kind will see her in jail. While what she did was abominable, it was less abominable than many other examples of child abuse, and, so far as the court was able to ascertain, not sustained over time. You had two wife-beaters in prominent positions at your White House--and have elected a man almost certainly guilty of multiple sexual assaults as your president--and you want to talk about Australia being soft on crime? Gimme a break.
    The difficulty in a justice system is the problem of people not guilty of things going to prison. However once we realize beyond a shadow of a doubt (like in this case) we should completely separate them from society. This person harmed a child. Lied about. Taunted the father of said child afterwards.

    Why do you I feel that you would be singing a different tune if it was a man who attacked the child, got a light sentence and then taunted his ex-spouse?

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Why do you I feel that you would be singing a different tune if it was a man who attacked the child, got a light sentence and then taunted his ex-spouse?
    I dunno, because you have a habit of believing stupid things? Most plausible explanation.
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    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    The difficulty in a justice system is the problem of people not guilty of things going to prison. However once we realize beyond a shadow of a doubt (like in this case) we should completely separate them from society. This person harmed a child. Lied about. Taunted the father of said child afterwards.

    Why do you I feel that you would be singing a different tune if it was a man who attacked the child, got a light sentence and then taunted his ex-spouse?
    Because your opinions regarding guilt or innocence aren't reliable or consistent. And your ideas about punishment are arcane.

    You're the guy that started a thread bemoaning the lack of 'Due Process' for men accused of sexual impropriety, as if they'd be exonerated or excused for their dalliances outside a court of law because boys will be boys, huh.

    You talk about being soft on crime, but you won't consider sensible limitations to the 2nd Amendment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post

    You're the guy that started a thread bemoaning the lack of 'Due Process' for men accused of sexual impropriety, as if they'd be exonerated or excused for their dalliances outside a court of law because boys will be boys, huh.
    What are you even talking about and how is it at all relevant to this topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What are you even talking about and how is it at all relevant to this topic?
    Hey, you started this thread, posted a link with pictures, and named the title. "Soft on crime". I might have taken you seriously if you'd said the same thing for victims without picture proof, like the minor children victimized by abusive teachers or priests or athletic doctors, but you didn't. No, you just went to the latest, most spurious thing you "heard" from Fox, or other alt-right sources.

    Shame on you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    The difficulty in a justice system is the problem of people not guilty of things going to prison. However once we realize beyond a shadow of a doubt (like in this case) we should completely separate them from society. This person harmed a child. Lied about. Taunted the father of said child afterwards.
    In this case, why should she be completely separated from society?

    I ask because of the apparent circumstance. If her crime is rooted in mental illness and having un-supervised access to her child, then the judge's order that she receive psychological treatment and be banned from unsupervised visits with the child seems to address the source of the trouble. As for taunting her ex, that's not really a crime - it just shows that she's fucked up and shouldn't be alone with her child, which was already addressed.

    The cost of sending her to prison is very high and I don't believe it should be paid unless it's necessary. And "I hate what she did and want her to suffer" is insufficient to call a necessity. If you really want to spend tax dollars on her, send her to a mental hospital where she could come out a contributing member of society.
    The Rules
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    In this case, why should she be completely separated from society?

    I ask because of the apparent circumstance. If her crime is rooted in mental illness and having un-supervised access to her child, then the judge's order that she receive psychological treatment and be banned from unsupervised visits with the child seems to address the source of the trouble. As for taunting her ex, that's not really a crime - it just shows that she's fucked up and shouldn't be alone with her child, which was already addressed.

    The cost of sending her to prison is very high and I don't believe it should be paid unless it's necessary. And "I hate what she did and want her to suffer" is insufficient to call a necessity. If you really want to spend tax dollars on her, send her to a mental hospital where she could come out a contributing member of society.
    Multiple reasons.

    1. She has shown no remorse.
    2. She has shown the capability for violence against those who can't defend themselves.
    3. Harsh punishments work as a deterrent.
    4. Just because the crime was against a child doesn't mean she wouldn't do other crimes to other people.
    5. She lied to the authorities.

    All of this paint a picture that she needs to have the book thrown at her for the good of society. Once we have identified the shit stains of society we should be doing everything we can to keep them away from the good law abiding citizens.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Multiple reasons.

    1. She has shown no remorse.
    2. She has shown the capability for violence against those who can't defend themselves.
    3. Harsh punishments work as a deterrent.
    4. Just because the crime was against a child doesn't mean she wouldn't do other crimes to other people.
    5. She lied to the authorities.

    All of this paint a picture that she needs to have the book thrown at her for the good of society. Once we have identified the shit stains of society we should be doing everything we can to keep them away from the good law abiding citizens.
    1. Irrelevant and does not justify the cost of imprisonment

    2. She hurt her child, probably because she can't deal with the stress of caring for a toddler. She is mentally ill, this is what the treatment is for. This is not a justification for the cost of imprisonment.

    3. No they don't. And especially not for this kind of crime - mentally ill parent abusing her child. As a justification for imprisonment, this is literally stupid.

    4. Punishing for possible future crime, now? She beat her toddler with a serving spoon because she has some inability to deal with her anger. Imprisonment is not a solution for such a condition. Mental hospital, maybe.

    5. What, she denied beating her baby? That's an extra crime, on top of beating the baby, that justifies prison time?

    Dude, just admit it. You think what she did was horrible and you don't know any other way to respond other than hurting her. You want the government to hurt her for no other reason than you abhor what she did. Period.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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    We apparently have different ideas on what is important in a criminal justice system. My primary concern is the lessening of crime and keeping innocents safe. What I would do would make it more likely that she does not harm another child. What you propose would make it more likely. Now I get your value system is different than mine, you think society should consider what is good or bad for the criminal as well as the victim. Under that philosophy I see why you would push for lenience. However my moral calculus gives ZERO value to her and to other criminals. I'd rather 10,000 monsters like that die than let even a 5% chance that one innocent will be harmed again.

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    Jesus.
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    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    We apparently have different ideas on what is important in a criminal justice system. What you are talking about is not justice, you are interest My primary concern is the lessening of crime and keeping innocents safe. What I would do would make it more likely that she does not harm another child. What you propose would make it more likely. Now I get your value system is different than mine, you think society should consider what is good or bad for the criminal as well as the victim. Under that philosophy I see why you would push for lenience. However my moral calculus gives ZERO value to her and to other criminals. I'd rather 10,000 monsters like that die than let even a 5% chance that one innocent will be harmed again.
    You misinterpret my argument. I am interested in what is good, or most practical and effective, for society -- part of which is cost/ benefit. Imprisoning this woman carries a much higher cost and no better benefit than treating her mental illness. I suspect the reason you disagree is because treatment doesn't satisfy your desire for punishment. A thirst for revenge and hurt is not part of my moral calculus (probably a residue from my Christian upbringing), nor does satisfying it benefit society in any way. Probably your yearning for such things clouds in your mind what needs to be done in favor of what you desire to be done, but they are not the same thing.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You misinterpret my argument. I am interested in what is good, or most practical and effective, for society -- part of which is cost/ benefit. Imprisoning this woman carries a much higher cost and no better benefit than treating her mental illness. I suspect the reason you disagree is because treatment doesn't satisfy your desire for punishment. A thirst for revenge and hurt is not part of my moral calculus (probably a residue from my Christian upbringing), nor does satisfying it benefit society in any way. Probably your yearning for such things clouds in your mind what needs to be done in favor of what you desire to be done, but they are not the same thing.
    Let me make sure I clarify your argument.

    Your position is that whatever is "good, or most practical and effective, for society -- part of which is cost/ benefit" is that locking up this woman is not as good for society because of the monetary cost? Do you have a specific equation you work off of?

    For example X crime has a cost associated with it. Let's say child murder. What is the societal cost for allowing child murder to occur? Apply this to other crimes such as rape, assault, etc. Once you have that you can consider the probability of it occurring and then compare that to the cost of prison. So what price tag do you consider child abuse to have?

    The monetary cost of locking people up can be high however the entire basis of government, the social contract, which says 'yeah we'll accept the lack of absolute freedom in exchange for safety' is the REASON we want government and not anarchy. The cost of keeping us safe is one of the few expenditures I'm fully in favor of.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Do you have a specific equation you work off of?
    No. But you could start with adding up the cost of lifetime imprisonment with the cost of the loss of her future economic productivity, and comparing it to the cost of appropriate psychological treatment.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    No. But you could start with adding up the cost of lifetime imprisonment with the cost of the loss of her future economic productivity, and comparing it to the cost of appropriate psychological treatment.
    What level of recidivism is acceptable to you?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What level of recidivism is acceptable to you?
    The challenge is to recognize that a one size fits all draconian police state is not justified by the goal of eliminating all risk of repeat offense. I know you are afraid, but you have to accept that there is no way for you to be completely safe, no matter what cost you are willing to have the nation bear.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  20. #20
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    ...
    For example X crime has a cost associated with it. Let's say child murder. What is the societal cost for allowing child murder to occur? Apply this to other crimes such as rape, assault, etc. Once you have that you can consider the probability of it occurring and then compare that to the cost of prison. So what price tag do you consider child abuse to have?

    The monetary cost of locking people up can be high however the entire basis of government, the social contract, which says 'yeah we'll accept the lack of absolute freedom in exchange for safety' is the REASON we want government and not anarchy. The cost of keeping us safe is one of the few expenditures I'm fully in favor of.
    Then what's your stance on limitations to the 2nd Amendment?

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