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Thread: I wonder what the cause is...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Germany didn't accept refugees, it accepted asylum seekers who made the journey by themselves. There's a world of difference. "An asylum seeker is someone who is seeking international protection but whose claim for refugee status has not yet been determined. In contrast, a refugee is someone who has been recognised under the 1951 Convention relating to the status of refugees to be a refugee." Those Germany accepted had not yet been recognised so were not refugees.

    At the camps in Turkey etc are organisations like the UN processing asylum seekers and granting refugee status to claimants. If Germany was then taking those people onto planes and transporting them over those would be refugees. Germany didn't do that. Instead over 60 years of legal precedent, best practice, the 1951 Convention and the Dublin Convention were all torn up, the UN was ignored, processing refugees didn't happen and instead Germany gave the biggest green light ever to the human filth who made a killing both metaphorically and literally from shanty boats.

    Dipshits.
    At the camps in Turkey? The UN processing and granting? It's always fun when people start throwing around all those magnificent programs there are for refugees. It's even more fun if someone who's living in a glass house starts chugging rocks at others for the fact that they not only accepted a single reality but took responsibility. The only way the refugee crisis could have been prevented in an orderly way would have been to force both Lebanon and Turkey to accept that the Syrians who fled to their territory were actually refugees and to throw tens of billions at the costs being incurred by such a recognition. Given that 'we' (and here the UK is included in the we) chose to stick with the mantra that refugees should be staying in their own region as much as possible but back this up with exactly NOTHING we could have predicted the outcome. I saw how Syrians lived in Turkey, I know how these wonderful UN schemes work. The acceptance rate of people who play by the rules is so low and the process is so stretched out that you can spend half of your productive live on the line for a travel permit somewhere where you then can try to start all over again from zero. It is enough to drive people to despair all by itself.

    I didn't hear you advocate sending tens of billions to Turkey and Lebanon in the years before the crisis erupted, I never heard you advocating being more generous in accepting refugees before the crisis. I did hear you bitch without end about Angela Merkel recognizing that things were as they were in the middle of the crisis though.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  2. #32
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Those who are refugees have had--or will have--their refugee status recognized, and Germany has accepted or will accept them, hence Germany accepted refugees. A person who meets the definition of "refugee" under the convention meets that definition both before and after RSD (for which states have the primary responsibility, not UNHCR). No amount of lame-ass sophistry changes the fact that you were wrong. In addition, in your post you refer to refugees and migrants without using the term "asylum seeker".
    No, there is no Tardis here they were accepted at their original status which is asylum seekers. They are then processed and many are granted refugee status down the line but that doesn't change the facts.

    The entire purpose of the Convention on Refugees, of the Dublin Convention, of the distinction between refugees and asylum seekers is to get people to a safe place of shelter and then they can be processed and dealt with accordingly and appropriate. That got ripped up with a Darwinian "if you can make it we'll take you but don't expect us to help" attitude. That's not morally superior it's disgusting. Those who acted properly and sought asylum where they were safe too got zero support while those who wanted to make a fortune on shanty boats got a lot of help. That's not a good priority.

    Had Germany said "we'll accept a hundred thousand refugees" and then took them from the camps in Turkey etc then that would have been incredible. It would not have led to a surge in drownings as people sought to get on treacherous boats to get there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #33
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    At the camps in Turkey? The UN processing and granting? It's always fun when people start throwing around all those magnificent programs there are for refugees. It's even more fun if someone who's living in a glass house starts chugging rocks at others for the fact that they not only accepted a single reality but took responsibility. The only way the refugee crisis could have been prevented in an orderly way would have been to force both Lebanon and Turkey to accept that the Syrians who fled to their territory were actually refugees and to throw tens of billions at the costs being incurred by such a recognition. Given that 'we' (and here the UK is included in the we) chose to stick with the mantra that refugees should be staying in their own region as much as possible but back this up with exactly NOTHING we could have predicted the outcome. I saw how Syrians lived in Turkey, I know how these wonderful UN schemes work. The acceptance rate of people who play by the rules is so low and the process is so stretched out that you can spend half of your productive live on the line for a travel permit somewhere where you then can try to start all over again from zero. It is enough to drive people to despair all by itself.

    I didn't hear you advocate sending tens of billions to Turkey and Lebanon in the years before the crisis erupted, I never heard you advocating being more generous in accepting refugees before the crisis. I did hear you bitch without end about Angela Merkel recognizing that things were as they were in the middle of the crisis though.
    You may not have heard me but I did actually. I said beforehand and all along that the right way to do it was to be generous and to offer the aid appropriately.

    The UK did initially give a lot in aid to Turkey etc, the second-highest amount behind only the USA in fact. While many were shouting we should cut international aid I supported it fully and still do.

    I'm not saying the situation in Turkey is good, quite the opposite. I'm saying the onus is on us to make it good, to support those who genuinely need it and not just offshore our responsibilities and accept those who were ferried to us by the people smugglers. Do you have any reason why the people smugglers should determine who gets our help and who doesn't?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #34
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No, there is no Tardis here they were accepted at their original status which is asylum seekers. They are then processed and many are granted refugee status down the line but that doesn't change the facts.
    Which only means that Germany accepted them first as asylum seekers and later as refugees, and accepted further refugees under family reunification policies. In other words, Germany accepted refugees. And, again, your post did not make any reference to asylum-seekers but only to refugees and migrants. You can easily confirm this without needing to use a TARDIS.

    In other words, you are wrong even if we take your posts at face value and accept your premises as being true.

    This is less relevant because your premises are not true:

    http://www.unhcr.org/4d93528a9.pdf

    PART ONE – Criteria for the Determination of Refugee Status

    CHAPTER I – GENERAL PRINCIPLES

    28. A person is a refugee within the meaning of the 1951 Convention as soon as he fulfils the criteria contained in the definition. This would necessarily occur prior to the time at which his refugee status is formally determined. Recognition of his refugee status does not therefore make him a refugee but declares him to be one. He does not become a refugee because of recognition, but is recognized because he is a refugee.
    Determination of refugee status does not make a refugee a refugee. It helps us declare the fact that a given refugee is indeed a refugee.

    You are, in every sense, wrong.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #35
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    OK I was wrong there (I'm always happy to acknowledge where I was wrong if it ever happens). Not sure why you wouldn't take my posts at face-value.

    Still doesn't change the fact that Germany off-shored her filtering as to who would be granted the refugee status to the people smugglers etc rather than dealing with it properly at the front-line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You may not have heard me but I did actually. I said beforehand and all along that the right way to do it was to be generous and to offer the aid appropriately.

    The UK did initially give a lot in aid to Turkey etc, the second-highest amount behind only the USA in fact. While many were shouting we should cut international aid I supported it fully and still do.

    I'm not saying the situation in Turkey is good, quite the opposite. I'm saying the onus is on us to make it good, to support those who genuinely need it and not just offshore our responsibilities and accept those who were ferried to us by the people smugglers. Do you have any reason why the people smugglers should determine who gets our help and who doesn't?
    Nobody did fuck all for those refugees not living in model camps. And everybody knew the camps were available to a tiny minority of refugees. The rest of them were either burning through what little money they had or were living in destitution.

    What was needed was not ‘the second highest amount’ but tens of billions to give these people basic housing, food, healthcare and access to education for their children. So shut the fuck up about your good intentions. And stop telling everybody how bad Merkel was for understanding that your type of ‘good intentions’ had saddled up the Balkans with a problem it could never solve without drastic action.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  7. #37
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Merkel wasn't stumping up any amount of billions let alone tens of billions.

    Merkel took the easy option. She did fuck all until the problem was there, then once people smugglers had brought people over then she said they could stay. She didn't provide safe passage, she didn't provide cash, she didn't provide resources. The people smugglers provided the transport not Merkel. You may view the people smugglers in high regard and view them as an appropriate solution, I don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Merkel wasn't stumping up any amount of billions let alone tens of billions.

    Merkel took the easy option. She did fuck all until the problem was there, then once people smugglers had brought people over then she said they could stay. She didn't provide safe passage, she didn't provide cash, she didn't provide resources. The people smugglers provided the transport not Merkel. You may view the people smugglers in high regard and view them as an appropriate solution, I don't.
    And you are an idiot anybody could sell a bridge to.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  9. #39
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    RB, you can't possibly believe that unemployment rates are a good measure to determine whether there are regions and sub-populations that are still finding it hard to find good employment. First off, unemployment's denominator only includes the people in the labor force and does not include e.g. discouraged workers. Secondly, country-wide unemployment rates tend to mask region or population specific malaise - certainly there are parts of the US and populations in the US that due to structural factors are either under- or unemployed, despite good unemployment numbers. Lastly, the German foreign-born unemployment right is almost double the overall German unemployment rate. I have no doubt that there are other populations that, for one reason or another, still have challenges getting to full employment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Full-time employment figures for Germany's Muslim population has previously tended to be about the same as for other groups, but I believe these statistics obscure important details about the types of jobs and about income disparities. For the refugees and others who've entered in the past few years, it's important to remember that many have not been permitted to work, so even if their conditions had been excellent--which is certainly not the case--they would be unemployed. I don't believe they're included in the statistics.
    That actually answers my question about how unemployment rates are calculated.

    Rand, maybe you'd like to retract your post saying "Lack of work? Who are you trying to kid, Germany has a 3.6% unemployment rate. Work is abundantly there if anyone can be arsed to find work."

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