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Thread: British govt: papers please

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Default British govt: papers please

    The British government's treatment of the Windrush migrants offers an enlightening illustration of why no-one can take their assurances on immigrants' rights seriously:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ration-amnesty

    After decades in the UK, immigrants from the Caribbean are suddenly being detained and required to prove, to an unreasonable standard, their right to legally reside in the country, under threat of deportation. Downing street largely silent on the matter.

    This is a PR problem for the UK's relations with the Commonwealth nations as well, but I suspect the Caribbean nations among them don't have much clout. India already knows of the UK's role in obstructing its trade negotiations with the EU due to its reluctance to loosen immigration restrictions, so this won't really change much but will, in a decade, likely be pointed to as justification for tougher clauses on immigration rights.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    It's a feature, not a bug.
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    So typical; shoddy government but God are they proud of it.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  6. #6
    Shameful stuff

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    ======== Timbuk2's Avatar
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    What a farce this is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Completely unacceptable and disgusting cock up.

    What makes things worse is that it seems in 2009 the bureaucrats the Home Office shredded the documents relating to the Windrush generation then they've started going after these people for lack of documentation. Ridiculous and it needs to stop immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    See Guardian link for background on that. No way in hell that was just done by just "bureaucrats".
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    See Guardian link for background on that. No way in hell that was just done by just "bureaucrats".
    I hadn't ready that but the news today is that the decision was made in 2009 not 2010 like the Guardian said in their first article.

    However if not done by bureaucrats who do you think made that decision and why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I hadn't ready that but the news today is that the decision was made in 2009 not 2010 like the Guardian said in their first article.

    However if not done by bureaucrats who do you think made that decision and why?
    The government? Such things are not decided by bueraucrats - they merely follow the orders passed down to them.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I hadn't ready that but the news today is that the decision was made in 2009 not 2010 like the Guardian said in their first article.

    However if not done by bureaucrats who do you think made that decision and why?
    High-level officials with the support of a minister. May claimed that the decision was made in 2009, contrary to the HO's own announcement. The destruction of these records seems to have occurred in 2010. Of course, slips or no slips, the "hostile environment" policies would still be in effect and these people would still find themselves in precisely the same bind, more or less. Alas, the Tories will still be unable to keep their promise to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    The government? Such things are not decided by bueraucrats - they merely follow the orders passed down to them.
    Actually in most countries such archives would have been destroyed long ago. It's not the shredding of these cards that is the scandal; it's the shredding of them at a time when the Government started to force people to provide proof of residence for every year that they claimed to have lived in the UK. In The Netherlands it would have been considered borderline legal to have those cards still in the archives. Unless they were considered of historical value. In which case they'd have been moved to an archive under the supervision of the National Library.

    It would be highly uncommon for political appointees to be even aware of removing old files from the archives.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Actually in most countries such archives would have been destroyed long ago. It's not the shredding of these cards that is the scandal; it's the shredding of them at a time when the Government started to force people to provide proof of residence for every year that they claimed to have lived in the UK. In The Netherlands it would have been considered borderline legal to have those cards still in the archives. Unless they were considered of historical value. In which case they'd have been moved to an archive under the supervision of the National Library.

    It would be highly uncommon for political appointees to be even aware of removing old files from the archives.
    Indeed this seems to be incompetence more than malice.

    Not that it makes it any better for those who've suffered due to the Home Office's incompetence.

    I do find it very odd that migrants into the nation aren't recorded anywhere. There are records of births, deaths and marriages for anyone in this country dating back for over a thousand years. These are historical records that are never destroyed. If you have an English ancestor you can trace your ancestry (so long as they remain in this nation of course) back to the first millennium. It would make sense to record migrants and emigrants somewhere too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed this seems to be incompetence more than malice.

    Not that it makes it any better for those who've suffered due to the Home Office's incompetence.

    I do find it very odd that migrants into the nation aren't recorded anywhere. There are records of births, deaths and marriages for anyone in this country dating back for over a thousand years. These are historical records that are never destroyed. If you have an English ancestor you can trace your ancestry (so long as they remain in this nation of course) back to the first millennium. It would make sense to record migrants and emigrants somewhere too.
    I do say. It is and has always been my conviction that the UK doesn't have so much a problem with migration, but a problem with the registration of migration. It seems that the government finally got to understand that refusal to register was a core problem. Except their solution to this wasn't reasonable in any way; nobody can be expected to have indisputable proof of legal residency for every year over the span of several decades unless the government is willing to use its own records for proof of legal residency.

    I realise that paying taxes doesn't necessarily mean you are a legal resident; but there is no reason in a government policy that deems 40 years of contributions insufficient for the assumption of legality. You're not doing the right thing by nailing everybody to the letter of the law decades after the fact (that you chose not to register). Making the individual responsible for the failings of the administration can only lead to injustice.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I have no doubt it was an ordeal, but I also refuse this kind of 'it killed him' dramatism. People don't drop dead on the street for bureaucratic setbacks. Otherwise the streets of every major city would be covered in corpses.

    What I don't quite understand is how judges agree to complicity in this policy.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  18. #18
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Ignorance and incompetence again I suspect.

    After this media furore I don't think they will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I have no doubt it was an ordeal, but I also refuse this kind of 'it killed him' dramatism. People don't drop dead on the street for bureaucratic setbacks. Otherwise the streets of every major city would be covered in corpses.

    What I don't quite understand is how judges agree to complicity in this policy.
    The question will never be resolved, but your characterization & reasoning are flawed. This man went through prolonged and intense financial, social, psychological and physical stress. Most people are not subjected to these pressures and even those who are, are not all equally sensitive or equally unfortunate. Your work environment or your position in your workplace hierarchy can have detrimental effects on your health; there's no reason to think sustained extreme stress of other varieties can't also have similarly detrimental effects.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Most people are not no, but millions are. In a city where I spend 1/3 of my time there are 600.000 people (at least) in a situation AT LEAST as bad as described for this man. However, they somehow manage to stay alive. Despite being subjected to insurmountable obstacles in every aspect of their daily lives. Such as there are; obtaining a mobile phone line, obtaining a 'travel permit' so they can go on a vacation to the beach in the same country, obtaining a registration so that they can compete in tournaments in their favorite sport, obtaining a passport of their home state as that home state charges as much as 4-5 months of your wages to give you one, obtaining a travel card for public transport so that you don't have to spend 20% of your income on travel costs to the crappy (illegal) job you managed to get. And this is the beginning only of a long list of can t does for the average Syrian in Istanbul. Still, no 600.000 dead bodies in the streets.

    And now that I think of it; since when are we going by the diagnosis of lay people to explain someone's death?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  21. #21
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Again, your reasoning is flawed. This is evidenced by your bizarre assumption that, if you were wrong, we'd see 600k dead bodies on the streets just from bureaucratic hassling. Just because the reasoning in the article is questionable doesn't mean that your reasoning is correct. I think we should be careful with attribution absent compelling evidence, but I also think we should acknowledge reality.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    Which reasoning are you talking about? The one where you blindly follow the diagnosis of a lay person who didn't even have a relationship close enough to know that he lost his benefits that this person died because of a severe depression? I have to reason nothing as all I do is say there is no proof for the correlation. My mention of millions of people NOT dying from bureaucratic obstacles is merely illustration.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  23. #23
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    What's the compensation for being forced into homelessness immediately after btain surgery?
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No idea. It ought to be a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #27
    And the government is Rudderless.

    Can May survive this? I sense the outrage and/or plot isn't over; but she's now lost her human shield. All eyes on Mrs May.

  28. #28
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    This was May's mess that Rudd has carried the can for. Although Rudd made a mistake in Parliament this is pathetic behaviour from the PM - though I already want her out anyway. She's a nasty authoritarian that we would be well rid of.

    I'd rather Rudd be in the cabinet and May gone than the other way around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #29
    Agreed.

  30. #30
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    I still remember a certain person here claiming that the Brexit vote would be followed by liberalization in trade and immigration policy. And a certain other person arguing it would empower the xenophobes and the nationalists.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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