Affluence

[wiggin]

On another note, wiggin.....what's wrong with "just" having a job where they clock in, do their work, and clock-out? If they make enough money to support themselves, and maybe a family, pay their bills, and save for retirement --- if they love what they're doing, and are Happy doing it --- isn't that also a valid "contribution" to society?

Be careful what you expect from your children

I don't think that my children should spend more than half of their waking hours for 40 years just doing something that pays the bills. I want them to use their innate talents, learned skills, and strength of character to make the world a better place. It doesn't need to be paid particularly well - though obviously providing for one's family and being financially responsible is important - but it should be something meaningful. Otherwise, what's the point of the whole thing? They will be given a fantastic starting place - an excellent education, a caring home, relative financial security, etc. - and they shouldn't squander it on something pointless and empty.

Let's not beat around the bush. If you are raised with proper values, understand the importance of hard work and have a working knowledge base they are superior than the people they are helping.

What I think is more important is to reinforce the idea that being better means acting better. 'Noblesse oblige' seems to be one of the driving factors behind Bill Gates for example.

Lewk, I don't think it's possible for me to disagree with you more. I do not think that any person is superior to any other. Down that road is a very dark place indeed. In fact, if my children end up believing what you wrote, I think I will have comprehensively failed as a parent.

It is possible that I might charitably read your statement not as referring to the innate worth of a human but rather to their ability to 'succeed' in life - by my own metrics, being able to contribute to the betterment of society and raise a caring and well-functioning family - then yes, some character traits, values, and skills will stand them in good stead compared to others. But that does not in any may make them more valuable than anyone else - perhaps just more fortunate in the circumstances of their birth, family, community, and nation.

Lewk, as I understand it you're a religious man. I'd direct your attention to Chapter 8 of Deuteronomy, especially verses 11-17. It sounds a whole lot better in the original Hebrew, but the gist is clear even in English. It's all too easy to attribute temporal success to one's own 'power and strength of hands' and to look down on those others who have not enjoyed the same success. But the fact of the matter is that much of our success is a product of circumstance (or, alternately, Providence) and not due to some innate or learned superiority over others. This is not to discount the value of hard work, and good values, and developing knowledge and skills. Yet in no way do I want my children to feel like they are the sole arbiters of their own destiny, with the implicit suggestion that those who have not had as easy a path through life are solely responsible for their situation. This is a deeply pernicious and destructive belief that has justified no small number of atrocities.

[GGT]

I don't think that my children should spend more than half of their waking hours for 40 years just doing something that pays the bills. I want them to use their innate talents, learned skills, and strength of character to make the world a better place. It doesn't need to be paid particularly well - though obviously providing for one's family and being financially responsible is important - but it should be something meaningful. Otherwise, what's the point of the whole thing? They will be given a fantastic starting place - an excellent education, a caring home, relative financial security, etc. - and they shouldn't squander it on something pointless and empty.

But you don't get to decide what they consider "valuable" or "meaningful" just because you're their parent. That's my point, and why I said be careful what you expect from your kids. If you think finding fulfillment in this world is somehow squandering their borne benefits, if they don't live up to YOUR expectations.....then you may never really know or understand your own children, which would be a real shame.

What's the point of the whole thing? Having children who are self-sufficient, with a character that means they're reliable, trustworthy, honest, genuine, humble, compassionate and empathetic, even if they're not necessarily changing the world with a high-powered job like you. That should be meaningful enough, but it's a hard thing to learn as a parent.

I used to feel a disappointment that neither of my sons took the traditional right-out-of-high-school college path. But that says more about how I was raised than the world they were confronting. Now I'm quite proud that they've found their own ways, on their own terms, bucking norms and expectations. There is nothing pointless or empty about that.

[wiggin]

A different responsibility? That seems a cop out that is absolutely indistinguishable from value or worth. Even absence a responsibility toward others you would still *feel* more if a family member or friend suffered compared to that of a stranger. That implies that person's worth in your life is different. Remove your actions, say you are off at work when something happens. You have no agency but two different people get mugged, you'd instantly feel more regret about the close person being harmed than the far person. This is rational and it makes sense and there is nothing wrong with it.

Feeling differently about something doesn't mean that someone's innate value is different; it's just that our personal connection to another person's needs might be greater when compared to someone else. I think there's really no connection between our visceral response to a situation and the innate worth of a person.

I think that viewing much of life through the lens of responsibility is critical, and far from a cop out. I have a greater responsibility to my children than anyone else does because I'm responsible for bringing them into the world and have been tasked by society with the job of raising them. I similarly have a greater responsibility to my family, my community, and nation than that of others. That doesn't mean I can treat people poorly when I don't have as great of a responsibility towards them, but it certainly means I should make an extra effort to care for the needs of those to whom I have the greatest responsibility.

Sure, being born in some crappy country like North Korea and there is little that you can do to achieve the life style of even a poor American. I get that. However in your space, in your community, in your city and state individual effort and responsibility matters. One of the most vile and dis-empowering philosophies is the notion that you can't succeed on your own merits. You can't lose weight, you can't get that job, you can't balance a budget because (insert x, y, z, genetics, racism, whatever your reasoning is). If someone believes they can't, than they won't. It is one of the most frustrating parts of liberalism, the notion that people are incapable.

Actually this is one of the only things in this thread that you've said that I have some sympathy towards. I think it's incredibly easy to infantilize people who are disadvantaged and rob them of agency. That doesn't, however, change the fact that while 10 or 20 or 30 percent of one's path through life is under your control, there's a whole hell of a lot that isn't, from a birth lottery to plain old bad luck. The trick is to realize that while outcomes are not fully under our control, they are partially under our control - working with the hand we've been dealt, it is certainly possible to put the best foot forward. But it's equally important to realize that someone doing everything 'right' from a shitty situation will be far less likely to succeed than someone doing everything right with a big head start.

I'm still not seeing your definition of justice. Something being 'wrong' is still subjective. To use a literary character book Stannis from Game of Thrones is what justice looks like un-tempered by mercy/grace. There is nothing JUST in giving people something they haven't earned. It may be kind, it may be appropriate and it may be loving (or it could be self-serving, acclaim seeking and enabling) but I wouldn't call it justice.

There's absolutely justice in helping out those who, through any number of factors, are unable to provide for their basic needs. I believe that because of everyone's innate worth, we are all endowed with dignity and - in a just world - would all have our basic needs met. The world sucks in many ways, however, so it's our responsibility (not our choice) to right that wrong.

But you don't get to decide what they consider "valuable" or "meaningful" just because you're their parent. That's my point, and why I said be careful what you expect from your kids. If you think finding fulfillment in this world is somehow squandering their borne benefits, if they don't live up to YOUR expectations.....then you may never really know or understand your own children, which would be a real shame.

What's the point of the whole thing? Having children who are self-sufficient, with a character that means they're reliable, trustworthy, honest, genuine, humble, compassionate and empathetic, even if they're not necessarily changing the world with a high-powered job like you. That should be meaningful enough, but it's a hard thing to learn as a parent.

I used to feel a disappointment that neither of my sons took the traditional right-out-of-high-school college path. But that says more about how I was raised than the world they were confronting. Now I'm quite proud that they've found their own ways, on their own terms, bucking norms and expectations. There is nothing pointless or empty about that.

They don't need a 'high powered job'. They don't need to be paid particularly well. What I want them to do, however, is work in a job that makes the world better. There are a whole lot of jobs that don't do that unless you make very broad arguments about nth order effects (e.g. marketing X useless widget gives people jobs and increases economic output and spurs further investment...). There are a whole lot of jobs that are absolutely critical to making the world better, and many of them aren't particularly prestigious or well-paid. But I'd far prefer my kids felt they were doing something meaningful with their lives rather than just marking time.

[GGT]

They don't need a 'high powered job'. They don't need to be paid particularly well. What I want them to do, however, is work in a job that makes the world better. There are a whole lot of jobs that don't do that unless you make very broad arguments about nth order effects (e.g. marketing X useless widget gives people jobs and increases economic output and spurs further investment...). There are a whole lot of jobs that are absolutely critical to making the world better, and many of them aren't particularly prestigious or well-paid. But I'd far prefer my kids felt they were doing something meaningful with their lives rather than just marking time.

OK, you said to Lewk that responsibility matters most....but then you say "making the world better" is the real goal? Like I said earlier, be careful what you expect from your kids. And be aware that you might be sending them mixed messages, as you've done here, that could undermine your good parental intentions. One of the worst things a child can feel, and internalize, is being a disappointment to their parents.

What you deem a "meaningful life" is contextual and time-sensitive. Everyone in the world is "just marking time", at any given point, so don't put too much emphasis on the time element. That's harder than it sounds, since our culture is all about delineating increments of time, whether it's for education or work, and judging success that way. Perhaps it's the psychology of comparison that you're struggling with as a parent, in a time when things change so rapidly, it's hard to know how to raise kids who have all the best already?

(btw, you'd be surprised at the number of privileged children who don't have any chores at home. They end up in college not knowing how to boil an egg.)