South Africa - do you learn from the past?

[Lewkowski]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-0...return/9392322

"The Government is now offering 99-year leases to white farmers, a deal previously reserved for black Zimbabweans.

The resignation of president Robert Mugabe last November and the swearing in of his successor Emmerson Mnangagwa has delivered significant change.

Government officials now admit the campaign of farm invasions that began in 2000 was a mistake.

"Clearly, the formulas deployed then, left a lot of bad feeling. And more importantly, the intellectual property, left our borders," Mr Nyabadza said."

And...

"Zimbabwe's maize production dropped by more than 60 per cent after the farm invasions and then fluctuated.

In 2016, an estimated 4 million Zimbabweans required food aid."

You've got to have some gall to murder and steal from your best producers, so much so that they literally flee the country and then ask them to return. And South Africa has looked over at the starvation and vastly decreased farm yields and said "oh yeah let's get in on that action." What a shitty country.

[RandBlade]

Its tragic and sad what is happening in South Africa. White farmers are literally being murdered to get them off their farms. Tragically whites should if they can get out of South Africa while they can. There is no peace and reconciliation there, only Zimbabwe as inspiration.

[Lewkowski]

Its tragic and sad what is happening in South Africa. White farmers are literally being murdered to get them off their farms. Tragically whites should if they can get out of South Africa while they can. There is no peace and reconciliation there, only Zimbabwe as inspiration.

Exactly - and this would be precisely the type of situation Asylum was meant for. Government persecution along religious or racial lines.

[Loki]

Interesting that you two are parroting the talking points of white nationalist groups. While there is a plan to expropriate white farms, the number is relatively small and only two are in the process of being taken. There is also no evidence of large scale attacks on white farmers, though the level of violence in South Africa is high, and no one is immune.

[Lewkowski]

Interesting that you two are parroting the talking points of white nationalist groups. While there is a plan to expropriate white farms, the number is relatively small and only two are in the process of being taken. There is also no evidence of large scale attacks on white farmers, though the level of violence in South Africa is high, and no one is immune.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-police.html

But of course South African government won't verify those numbers... gee I wonder why.

Also Loki do you really think they are going to stop at just two farms?

[Aimless]

Interesting that you two are parroting the talking points of white nationalist groups. While there is a plan to expropriate white farms, the number is relatively small and only two are in the process of being taken. There is also no evidence of large scale attacks on white farmers, though the level of violence in South Africa is high, and no one is immune.

This is how that eco system works:

Twitter Link

Article provides more context.

[RandBlade]

Interesting that you two are parroting the talking points of white nationalist groups. While there is a plan to expropriate white farms, the number is relatively small and only two are in the process of being taken. There is also no evidence of large scale attacks on white farmers, though the level of violence in South Africa is high, and no one is immune.

Not parroting any groups. Not involved with any groups. My wife however is South African and so this is rather personally relevant. The stories I've heard of violence there is shocking.

[Aimless]

Certainly shocking, but purely racially motivated violence directed against white people constitutes a tiny proportion of that violence.

[Loki]

Not parroting any groups. Not involved with any groups. My wife however is South African and so this is rather personally relevant. The stories I've heard of violence there is shocking.

South African emigres are the ones spreading the false rumors. With the help of publications like the Daily Mail.

[Hazir]

So, stories of shocking violence in South Africa. What else is new one thinks. Certainly not the relative overrepresentation of whites in the upper echelons of the economy.

South Africa has for decades been a third world country with a first world (white) facade. Now that white privilege no longer exists, I am certain the process of adaptation to living in Third world conditions are painful for those whites who are affected by it. It saddens me to see people being downwardly mobile. However, it is the reality of living in a Third World country where the government hasn't got the means to protect all of its citizens to the same extent. And no longer has the will to protect a mere minority of its citizens.

According to AgriSA (an organisation of WHITE South African farmers) the number of plaasmoorden has gone down from 153 in 1998 to 74 last year. The numbers include white farmers killed, black farmers killed and black farmhands killed. Last year the number of murders in South Africa hit 19.000. All lives matter, yet it seems like South Africa has no special problem with a white genocide.

[RandBlade]

South African emigres are the ones spreading the false rumors. With the help of publications like the Daily Mail.

False rumours? I don't think her family members who've been subjected to violence are false.

[Lewkowski]

So, stories of shocking violence in South Africa. What else is new one thinks. Certainly not the relative overrepresentation of whites in the upper echelons of the economy.

South Africa has for decades been a third world country with a first world (white) facade. Now that white privilege no longer exists, I am certain the process of adaptation to living in Third world conditions are painful for those whites who are affected by it. It saddens me to see people being downwardly mobile. However, it is the reality of living in a Third World country where the government hasn't got the means to protect all of its citizens to the same extent. And no longer has the will to protect a mere minority of its citizens.

According to AgriSA (an organisation of WHITE South African farmers) the number of plaasmoorden has gone down from 153 in 1998 to 74 last year. The numbers include white farmers killed, black farmers killed and black farmhands killed. Last year the number of murders in South Africa hit 19.000. All lives matter, yet it seems like South Africa has no special problem with a white genocide.

I agree South Africa is a pretty shitty country however 74 murders in a particular industry in a not so large country is a massive number. Furthermore even if we place the murders aside we still have the issue of an out and out racist government actually moving to strip land on the basis of race.

[Loki]

False rumours? I don't think her family members who've been subjected to violence are false.

That's not evidence of a concerted effort against white farmers. Neither is there evidence of a Zimbabwe scale of farm seizures. I know you're not that bad at reading. So why repeat white nationalist talking points?

[Hazir]

It's easier explained by crime being extremely violent in that country and islands of opulence in the impoverished countryside attracting criminals.

As for government stripping people of their land based on the race they belonged to; that also would be nothing new in South Africa. Though at least nowadays such ideas are (still) unconstitutional whereas some people still alive have seen those ideas as the law of the land.

[Loki]

I agree South Africa is a pretty shitty country however 74 murders in a particular industry in a not so large country is a massive number. Furthermore even if we place the murders aside we still have the issue of an out and out racist government actually moving to strip land on the basis of race.

Except there is no evidence the white farmers are being killed at an above average rate. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41807642

[RandBlade]

Except there is no evidence the white farmers are being killed at an above average rate. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41807642

That's not what the link says. It says it can't be determined, that on some measures they are being killed at an above average rate, on some measures its 'merely' average. On no measure is it below average. Following through the link the BBC links to, it ranges from 1.1 farm murders relative to other murders, to 2.2 depending upon how it is measured: https://irr.org.za/reports/research-...0analysis..pdf

Of course by western standards farmers have lower rates of being victims than non-farmers. Crime is worse in urban locales than rural ones. Crime rates are statistically significantly worse in urban areas. That doesn't apply in South Africa but South Africa doesn't follow western norms so not sure how it compares to other third world comparisons.

[Aimless]

It's easier explained by crime being extremely violent in that country and islands of opulence in the impoverished countryside attracting criminals.

As for government stripping people of their land based on the race they belonged to; that also would be nothing new in South Africa. Though at least nowadays such ideas are (still) unconstitutional whereas some people still alive have seen those ideas as the law of the land.

I believe you're referring to what Tucker Carlson's and Lewk's (and Trump's) new best friends have described as "so-called apartheid".

[Aimless]

That's not what the link says. It says it can't be determined, that on some measures they are being killed at an above average rate, on some measures its 'merely' average. On no measure is it below average. Following through the link the BBC links to, it ranges from 1.1 farm murders relative to other murders, to 2.2 depending upon how it is measured: https://irr.org.za/reports/research-...0analysis..pdf

Of course by western standards farmers have lower rates of being victims than non-farmers. Crime is worse in urban locales than rural ones. Crime rates are statistically significantly worse in urban areas. That doesn't apply in South Africa but South Africa doesn't follow western norms so not sure how it compares to other third world comparisons.

Loki said there's no evidence of white farmers being murdered at an above average rate. The data presented cannot even provide good estimates for rates of farm murders, let alone rates specifically for white farmers.

[RandBlade]

Except there is evidence. It's inconclusive but there is evidence.

[Aimless]

Please note distinction between claim about farm murders in general and murders of white farmers in particular. In addition, when evidence in support of a claim is fatally flawed, it isn't always appropriate to regard it as "inconclusive".

[Loki]

Except there is evidence. It's inconclusive but there is evidence.

The word you're looking for is "made-up." And when someone makes an empirical claim without the support of evidence, they're engaging in what scientists call "lying."

[Lewkowski]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/201...ow_a_23456601/

""I'm saying to you, we've not called for the killing of white people, at least for now. I can't guarantee the future.""

Nothing to see here, right Loki?

[RandBlade]

"I'm saying to you, we've not called for the killing of white people, at least for now. I can't guarantee the future."
Asked by the presenter if he understood that to some this might sound like a "genocidal call", Malema responded, "Cry babies, cry babies!"

[Aimless]

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.za/2018/...id_a_23457650/

[RandBlade]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/251010

[Aimless]

Is this still a thread about racially motivated farm murders, white genocide in South Africa etc, or is it a "look how crazy Malema is" thread?

[RandBlade]

Both.

[Loki]

Keep on changing the goalposts and topics. You'll be right eventually. But you'd still be parroting white nationalists.

[RandBlade]

Keep on turning a blind eye to violence and incitement to violence by politicians.

[Loki]

I'm more interested in the truth than in showing loyalty to my racial tribe.